Aesthetix Io Users Group

[abeidrov]

Question: is the Io using a dedicated AC line for its power? If not, then this may be a lower cost solution. I use four 20 amp dedicated outlets for my audio gear and the sub-panel for them has two grounding rods. I also use an Audience aR12. But, the Audience is not needed to keep noise form other appliances out of the Io. When using dedicated circuits, they can be wired into the main panel so that they do not share the same AC phase as other noisy appliances.

Unfortunately, all the audio gear is on a separate circuit breaker, but I guess it’s no the same, as a dedicated AC line. I was not an audiophile, when I moved to this apartment. Now it would be difficult to do it, although I may try it in the future. I am looking for a quicker and easier solution.

 

[oldvinyl]

Unfortunately, all the audio gear is on a separate circuit breaker, but I guess it’s no the same, as a dedicated AC line. I was not an audiophile, when I moved to this apartment. Now it would be difficult to do it, although I may try it in the future. I am looking for a quicker and easier solution.

Correct. If the outlets are not wired correctly in parallel, or no voltage drop, then there can be ground loops. If other outlets are on the same circuit then they can couple noise to the audio equipment. You can try plugging the noisy devices into other outlets in a different room. Depending on the noise and how it couples to the audio gear, it may take an isolation transformer or a line conditioner. The PS Audio is a different beast - it generates AC power.

 

[abeidrov]

Well, I can’t move the bathroom to another place And I don’t have this issue with digital. And, when I tried CH P1, it was also dead quiet. So it‘s the Io that is the source of the issue or rather its hyper sensitivity to the quality of the power supplied. My guess is that a power regenerator like PS Audio or Stromtank would solve this issue, but I am concerned about how they would change the overall sound of the system.

Also, how powerful should it be, if I use a regenerator just for Io? Its power consumption is 350 watts, but how much current does it need?

 

[oldvinyl]

Well, I can’t move the bathroom to another place And I don’t have this issue with digital. And, when I tried CH P1, it was also dead quiet. So it‘s the Io that is the source of the issue or rather its hyper sensitivity to the quality of the power supplied. My guess is that a power regenerator like PS Audio or Stromtank would solve this issue, but I am concerned about how they would change the overall sound of the system.

Also, how powerful should it be, if I use a regenerator just for Io? Its power consumption is 350 watts, but how much current does it need?

350 watts means a little over 3 amps with 110 volts AC. You can consider an isolation transformer before incurring the expense of a regenerator.

 

[Kcin]

Its not that easy, most any tube in the Io preamp will have similar outcomes. Even the power supply.

ok @oldvinyl beat me to it

 

[OGH]

Making a list of "typical sound problem / typical suspect tube" is difficult, like I wrote. And maybe, a typical problem - more or less sounding the same - can be caused by several tubes (or combinations). In other cases, the typical cause is fairly clear. When I hear background tube noise, it is usually time to check the v1-v2 tubes. When I don't know the cause, I typically follow the procedure outlined by oldvinyl, above (post 660), except that I check the sources (analog, digital) first. When I am in the land of confusion, Glenn at A has been excellent help. I see from my log that I have had two tube problems over the last years. First, hum in one channel, it turned out to be one of the JJ 12ax7 (low noise) from the factory tube set that had given up, and was fairly easy to spot and fix (in v1 or v2). Second, one channel had only half volume, a less familiar symptom for me. It turned out to be one of the v5 Teslovak ECC83S tubes. I put the faulty tube in my Jade OTL headphone amp, where it worked OK. There you go. The best testbed for the Io (unfortunately) is the Io itself. My RM1 tube tester helps me sort out dead tubes, but is of limited help regarding how the tube will actually sound in the Io.

 

[OGH]

Dedicated AC line - I fully agree with oldvinyl and others, this is a plus with the Io. I would never go back. Line conditioner, regenerator etc? I have not tried much, but was not convinced when I tried. If the dedicated line supplies fairly clean power, it is maybe the best option. I have a ca 1 inch thick separate power cable from the main breaker box upstairs to the listening room downstairs, which is split into 2 x 20 ampere and 1 x 10 ampere, in a breaker box just next to the stereo. We have ca 230 volt here in Norway so each line has ca twice the wattage than in the US. I installed this while I had the Krell FPB amp, and the effect was massive. It allowed the amp to shine in its best regions, bass and authority. Later, I have found that all components benefit from this stable strong and fairly 'unpoluted' power cable setup, including the Io. I don't hear it when the washing machine or the fridge turns on. On the other hand, even in Norway with a lot of good electricity, the AC stability is said to be so-so, not optimal.

 

[audioquest4life]

Well, I can’t move the bathroom to another place And I don’t have this issue with digital. And, when I tried CH P1, it was also dead quiet. So it‘s the Io that is the source of the issue or rather its hyper sensitivity to the quality of the power supplied. My guess is that a power regenerator like PS Audio or Stromtank would solve this issue, but I am concerned about how they would change the overall sound of the system.

Also, how powerful should it be, if I use a regenerator just for Io? Its power consumption is 350 watts, but how much current does it need?

I have addressed power supply as a total solution, not just one facet. I would have done a complete 20kw Equitech for the listening room, but builder would not allow it. Next house.

First, I had a Environmental Potentials EP-2050 installed on the main line, https://www.vhaudio.com/environmental-potentials-ep-2050.pdf
This is a commercial grade in line noise and electrical spike reducer and serves as home surge protector as well.

Then, I added 5 dedicated 20 amp circuits, Furutech carbon plates, Furutech GTX-D rhodium ac outlets, and lastly, I opted to use PSAudio power regeneration. I Know there are folks who like or dislike, but, for me, I wanted absolute stable 120 volt @60hz to go along with my investment of equipment to ensure absolute clean power delivery. Granted, the McIntosh MC2301 amps have power regulation of some sorts which provide low noise stable power on their own. I tried straight into outlet and power regeneration and felt that the sound was more organic sounding with the PS Audio on the amps and source and preamps. PS20 for amps and PS12 for Io. That’s on my System.

Regarding hum, generally speaking, and based on numerous years of user feedback in this and other forums, as it relates to the Io, it could be stated that the Io rarely is the cause of hum, but amplifies or picks up spurious noise from external factors, I.e, loosely connected or unshielded phono cables, and power cables, same, unshielded or too close to transformers and/or crossed over with other cables. Also, equipment placed too close to each can cause hum. For the Io specifically, the owners manual states not to place equipment to close on top or below the equipment. Having widely spaced racks will aid in this. This is a highly sensitive piece of equipment and getting all of the external influences under control which may cause noise is paramount to enjoy the total benefit of the sound that the Io can display. It is simply incredible.

Also want to add that version 2.0 (my naming nomenclature for the Eclipse versions with upgraded power supplies) is absolutely quiet compared to my original Io from way back when in 2005. Note that I sent my Io back to the factory last year for the partial Eclipse, and dual Upgraded power supplies.

 

[abeidrov]

From my audio log:

"When I got Io back from repair in 2017, it came with a full new tube set that I ordered from the factory.
Earlier, I had used NOS tubes in the most important positions (V1-2), but these had become noisy.
The new tube set from Aesthetix used new JJ signal tubes for positions v1-v6.
I had used Telefunken NOS in V1-2.
I quickly realised that the new JJ tubes were indeed very low noise. Plus one to Aesthetix - these were clearly selected for low noise.
Yet they weren't as musical as the Telefunkens.
So what to do.
I first reinstalled the Teles in v1-2. Living with the larger background noise. Then I got tired of it.
I invested in four Philips Herleens for v1-2, and have not looked back. Or: not so much.
The Teles may be slightly better overall, but the Herleen have a bit of "rock foot", and both are above the JJs (and Sovteks) in musicality.
So, since the Herleens are low noise (even if not quite down to the selected JJ low), I don't regret. Also, since the Teles - real low noise - are now very hard to get.
Since the Philips Herleen NOS worked well in v1-2, I also ordered Herleen 6922 in V7, and RCA NOS 6sn7 in v8 (heerlen E88CC and RCA 6SN7GTB).
These have now replaced the ones in the tube set from Aesthetix in 2017 (v7 - Electro Harmonix, v8 Russian 6HA7).
This is where the jury is out to lunch, - a rather good and extended lunch, I would say.
Does it sound better? I wish I could invite you over, to listen.
It is maybe a bit leaner and also purer than I got from the Electro Harmonix plus Russian v7-8 combo. I associate Electro H with rather limited sound, but the Russian is really a contender
from way back when, and was included in the Io tube set for a reason, I believe. However my experience with RCA output tubes are generally good, so maybe this will come to the forefront, here also.
The NOS tubes are possibly unused, and need run-in.
For reference, the tubes I try in v7 and v8 now, are Philips Herleen 6922/e88cc and Rca6sn7gtb)."

My impression from reading Albert Porter's very valuable advice, years ago, was that the best idea was to move from v1 to v2 and so on downwards (from his "long" post, not reproduced above).

First, get the Io to sing in terms of the input from the cartridge. Then, change tubes downwards in the chain. Be aware that upstream and downstream tubes tend to go together differently, some match well, some dont. So he gave quite complex advice. I don't know why, exactly, but it seems that he later changed to an Allnic phono pre.

My general impression is, even if Philips tubes from the Herleen factory aren't quite up to Telefunken standard, they are very good, and clearly above new production including Psvane, Sovtek, JJ and china (where I have tried them).

They do well in the v1-2 position - low noise, and more musical than the factory-supplied JJs.
Also, I think, in v7. I am not sure, however, if this is better than with the factory-supplied EH and russian 6ha7 in v7-v8. A bit better, clearer - maybe.

Some have associated RCA with "mud", but the impression here (v8), rather, is a more "slim" sound. I use RCA NOS in various positions, and don't agree that they generally sound muddy.

Sorry for not being more precise, but in my rack, I cannot do easy AB-testing.

Thank you for sharing your experience.
I’ve just ordered a pair of Siemens 6922 and Telefunken 12AX7 from Tubedepot. There is also a Telefunken 12AX7 smooth plate version available. Do you think they have similar sound? Also, maybe you know what Albert recommended in his long post as a 6SN7 tube replacement?

 

[OGH]

Thanks abeidrov. I may have some experience with the Siemens 6922, will check my log. "OK" is my general impression of these tubes. Telefunken 12ax7 - I hope they are low-noise enough to be used in v1-v2. I have 10-15 NOS Telefunken 12ax7, several plate versions I believe (not sure), I have noticed some sound a bit better than others, but mainly the sound is the same - as long as they have acceptably low noise. So I associate them with good sound, a bit better than other NOS I have tried (but not so much, in some cases. It is a bit, do you like the Telefunken "style", or not). You can of course use good-sounding but somewhat noisy 12ax7, no longer suitable for the critical first gain stage, in the later stages - maybe with good results. I do so myself, even if from a purist point of view it sounds a bit fishy. The thing to know is that the first gain stage is like a microscope with an extremely high resolution. I hear "noise" from a tube in v1-v2, while I don't hear it when I use the same tube in another gain stage (or another tube amp). When you turn up the Io volume, and listen to this noise, it is like a bit of wind in the background, or even a bit of bubling, it sounds irregular, not like the constant hum from a bad component.

I am no tube expert, but I think that the background noise level in a tube is associated with problems, especially, an incease in the noise level is often a sign of end of tubelife coming up. Yet there may be a lot of life, left in the tube, if it is put in a less critical position.

A low-cost way to check this is to invest in four low noise new production 12ax7, e g JJ or Sovtek. Be sure that the seller tests them for noise. Audioquest4life kindly sent me some tested Sovteks, and I can confirm, these are indeed low noise enough to be used in the first gain stage, like the Aesthetix-supplied JJs that I have. So, with four good new production tubes, it should be possible, downwards in the Io gain stage chain, to check what is the state of the NOS (or new) tubes sitting there, is it OK, or not, compared to the new tube set. Two factors are considered - first, if something is off, compared to the new set, frequency not linear, too much noise, etc - and then, musicality.

But all this is quite some work. This is why I asked, can we make a symptom list, regarding typical tube problems in the Io, sorted by gain stage positions. Like, I had a bad tube in v5 and it sounded like this.

I will check my audio log for 6sn7 experience, and if I can find some A Porter long post info. My general impression is, 12ax7 changes have been more dramatic in terms of sound.

 

[abeidrov]

I now have 6 new production Art series Psvane 12AX7S tubes in V1-V3 and Psvane 181-T in place of the stock 6SN7 tubes. To my surprise Psvane 12AX7S are as noisy as the stock JJ tubes. You are spot on about the wind noise and bubbling that comes and goes. I sometimes hear this bubbling, when the ventilator in my bathroom is switched off and then it just goes away. Anyway, with Psvane Art series the noise level is the same as with the stock tubes, and I did not ask for a selection of low noise tubes, just got the last six that were in stock. They sound more transparent, than the stock tubes, will see how it will change with the break in.

 

[abeidrov]

I never realised, that Io is one power hungry beast! I am now trying Stromtank S1000. This is the smallest Stromtank unit, recommended for the use with source components only. Well, Io is a source component, but when I put the Stromtank in the green mode (disconnected from the grid), the discharge indicator goes to 9 o’clock position and the sound becomes too mellow, I think dynamics suffer. I hear difference in dynamics even with digital when Io is switched on and off. Very strange.
By the way, Stromtank is not a solution to my ventilator issue. I still hear when the ventilator is switched off even when the Stromtank power cord is disconnected.

 

[dan31]

I believe the Io pulls close to 400 watts. I think there might be subtle differences depending on model and vintage.

 

[OGH]

I am surprised, shouldn't the Stromtank be able to tackle the Io? I mean, it is built like a German WW2 revenge...even if it is a junior in their line. On the other hand, it does not really surprise me, thinking of the Io much like a high resolution microscope, needing power, to get to that resolution. When I turn the Io up in volume, without playing music, I not only listen to what goes on inside the Io itself, but also, to the electrical system and situation, in my house. Some years ago, I had periodic scratching, from my speakers - and it turned out to be the burglar alarm, which had to be relocated in another room, to avoid noise picked up by the Io. Se well, a quite demanding component! I have not tried advanced power conditioners like the Stromtank, but my impression so far, is that I get the best sound right from the wall (dedicated line, 230 volts).

 

[OGH]

Abeidrov - can you clarify, regarding the 12ax7 tubes?
Psvane - did the seller select low-noise, or are these standard off the shelf?
JJ stock - stock from whom? Aesthetix? Or just from a seller not testing for noise?

 

[abeidrov]

Abeidrov - can you clarify, regarding the 12ax7 tubes?
Psvane - did the seller select low-noise, or are these standard off the shelf?
JJ stock - stock from whom? Aesthetix? Or just from a seller not testing for noise?

They are standard off the shelf. These are 12ax7-s tubes from the Art series. They are supposed to be all low-noise. The JJ stock ones came with the Io and were selected by Aesthetix.

 

[audioquest4life]

You are pretty close with wattage and accurate with your statement about model and vintage. I recall that I posted somewhere back in this thread the actual wattage used with the Io with one power supply and that was between 385-410 watts. Looking at my power usage pics of the Io with dual upgraded power supplies it is pulling around 534 watts and 4.04 amps On the PS Audio P12, which is only a 48% load according to the scope.

I think any new Eclipse version and older models that are upgraded to Eclipse (and dual power, and those owners who ask for the power supply upgrades, will be pleasantly surprised how efficient and low noise the new power supplies are. Lastly, they emit less heat.

I believe the Io pulls close to 400 watts. I think there might be subtle differences depending on model and vintage.

 

[audioquest4life]

I am surprised, shouldn't the Stromtank be able to tackle the Io? I mean, it is built like a German WW2 revenge...even if it is a junior in their line. On the other hand, it does not really surprise me, thinking of the Io much like a high resolution microscope, needing power, to get to that resolution. When I turn the Io up in volume, without playing music, I not only listen to what goes on inside the Io itself, but also, to the electrical system and situation, in my house. Some years ago, I had periodic scratching, from my speakers - and it turned out to be the burglar alarm, which had to be relocated in another room, to avoid noise picked up by the Io. Se well, a quite demanding component! I have not tried advanced power conditioners like the Stromtank, but my impression so far, is that I get the best sound right from the wall (dedicated line, 230 volts).

I was so close to putting this type of drywall in my room to make a complete dead zone along with soundproofing. I settled for soundproof only and ended up using dual layer drywall from Quietrock, 520.


In Europe, this is a product they have to get at electro smog : https://www.rigips.de/produkte-syst...ial-gipsplatten/rigips-climafit-10/pr00040913


I still feel comfortable using the Io into the PS Audio for steady state power. I am in the middle of an experiment with the P20 where I unplugged it and plugged the McIntosh MC2301 amps directly into wall. Will leave in for a month and change up to see if I like the difference with PS audio or not. That’s another story for another thread.

My impressions of the Io are such that when it is operating without any disturbances and your system is warmed up, all you will experience is musical enjoyment. My wife has to call me to bed on work nights because now I am turning on the system a few hours before work ends and then afterwords, I am putting on anything that suits my mind for that moment, then relax with some bourbon.

 

[abeidrov]

I’ve just tried Io straight into the wall. Not good. There is some edginess to the sound, which is definitely not present with the Stromtank. Now I am not hearing any penalty to dynamics. Maybe it just needed some time to warm up and charge over the night.

 

[audioquest4life]

I’ve just tried Io straight into the wall. Not good. There is some edginess to the sound, which is definitely not present with the Stromtank. Now I am not hearing any penalty to dynamics. Maybe it just needed some time to warm up and charge over the night.

How long did you leave the Io on before you started playing music? This I do know, the Io requires a good warmup before you can obtain optimum sound qualities due to the vast amount of tubes. I would definitely agree with you that if you have any noise in your electrical or other anomalies that some form of power conditioning is necessary. I for one want stable power for my analog sources because I don’t want to chance power being off correct voltage and affecting my record playback.