"Long-Term Equipment Loans: A Win-Win for Everyone" by Robert Harley, The Absolute Sound

[Elliot G.]

And it’s disappointing that you did not answer my specific question on what you are looking for and if comparisons played a role. I was genuinely trying to understand your thinking and respond with a thoughtful answer.

I answered this!
Nevermind we dont seem to be able to communicate I can't say the things I want any clearer.
What is the difference between a Rockport Orion and a Wilson Alex V? how is that clear enough. Its not the comparison per se its the reality of the 5 speakers that graced the cover over the last 6 months or so.
I dont care which you like I want to know what one does or doesnt and the other does or doesnt do. Ill decide which I want. Saying both are wonderful is worthless IMO

 

[Lee]

I answered this!
Nevermind we dont seem to be able to communicate I can't say the things I want any clearer.
What is the difference between a Rockport Orion and a Wilson Alex V? how is that clear enough. Its not the comparison per se its the reality of the 5 speakers that graced the cover over the last 6 months or so.
I dont care which you like I want to know what one does or doesnt and the other does or doesnt do. Ill decide which I want. Saying both are wonderful is worthless IMO

Don’t the TAS reviews point out the strengths and weaknesses of each design and individual product?

Isn’t that enough for people to get a sense of the speaker and then go out and audition it for themselves?

 

[Lee]

Do the reviewers of major rags have similar brand gear, or do they have all sorts of different equipment? Its more a curiosity question. I believe every single manufacturer will give a reviewer a dealer price on equipment purchase. So its not like a major brand has some back door lobbying power others don't. The curiosity is if its all similar stuff, why do they like it so much. If they do all have similar stuff, then it makes sense why these magazine seem to visit the same gear year after year after year as the reviewers get updated models.

I have noticed some brands catch on. Estelon is one. I heard it at Fremers house and really liked it. In the last couple years I have seen it get a lot of press.

Maybe a lot of bitching about what gets press coverage is some sort of conspiracy is not all that accurate. Maybe the gear that gets coverage has something to it. Maybe it presents in a way vocal forum posters don't like. But that doesn't mean a lot of other people don't find it pleasing.

I see all sorts of brands at reviewers’ homes. I think it’s really a democratic process. Accommodation pricing is offered by almost all brands so human nature being what it is, the reviewer will want the best he can get for his particular budget. If there is a lot of one specific brand then I believe it is likely that brand has some merit in terms of sound quality and build quality. Reviewers also take into account resale value. Perhaps more so since upgrading is frequent.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Reviewers reviewers ,........

For listening and enjoying music you don t need reviewers .
You just need a nice stereo system

 

[Elliot G.]

Wilson XVX, Magico M-9, Gobel Divin Noblesse, Rockport Orion, Stenheim, Burmeister, T&A, Estelon and maybe a few I missed all in the last few months. Maybe I am missing a few .
My answer to you Lee is no they did not
So why is that?
Please educate us all.

"They all are c ertainly speakers one should consider" this quote is from Julien Hirsch circa 1970

 

[Lee]

@Kingrex Good questions. A few things to consider from a manufacturers’ perspective:

1. Some feel that if the reviewer has exposure to their product at home then they will become more familiar with its good qualities.

2. This is a cottage industry so cultivating a relationship with the press is valuable.

3. Manufacturers often will offer an easy path to the upgraded version because they want the reviewer to write about it and do a review, especially if they wrote one for the original series product.

4. Used gear from a reviewer places a burden on a manufacturer. They have to resale it and perhaps refurbish it. May have to certify it too if there is a CPO program. And shipping on speakers is mega expensive. Far better to sell to the reviewer.

 

[Lee]

Wilson XVX, Magico M-9, Gobel Divin Noblesse, Rockport Orion, Stenheim, Burmeister, T&A, Estelon and maybe a few I missed all in the last few months. Maybe I am missing a few .
My answer to you Lee is no they did not
So why is that?
Please educate us all.

"They all are c ertainly speakers one should consider" this quote is from Julien Hirsch circa 1970

Julien Hirsch missed the performance boat so dramatically that we now have this far better high end business.

I seem to recall Robert gave a glowing review to the Gobel and put it on the cover. And he spoke to the strengths of the loudspeaker. Are you not happy with that?

My friends at TAS are reaching out to me in bewilderment having seen this thread.

I think Oliver Gobel is a fantastic designer and a really good person as well. Loads of accomplishments to celebrate there. And thanks to your lending them to me for a short period, I know his signal cables are super high quality.

But why the whining about the press? Everyone is doing the best they can as far as I can tell.

Do you want more in-depth longer reviews? It’s a day to day struggle to get manufacturers to buy the ads, print or digital, as it is. And printing and distribution costs are sky high now. I have intimate knowledge on this. It’s not economic to have longer reviews than what exist.

We should at least give Harley, Valin, and Gader credit for doing deeper dives of the flagship speakers with the technical sidebars and interviews.

 

[Elliot G.]

But why the whining about the press? Everyone is doing the best they can as far as I can tell.

Maybe its because you are just the defender of the undefenseable, the fan of all fans, and you seem to think that yours is the only correct opinion. Audio and the magazines existed long before you and things were done differently. In my personal opinion it was done much better.
Money is the great corrupter and it corrupts everything. Dropping names is annoying and if these people want to speak we welcome them. I don't really want to hear second hand. I certainly don't want people speaking for me. Oh yeah I don't speak for them either.



FACTS:
The magazines are for profit
The magazines charge for adds
The magazines pay for nothing on a review- absolutely nothing- of the costs associated yet receive benefits from this
Everyone on the magazine staff gets paid- paid from the advertising revenues from the manufacturers
So why are you whinning about the costs. Thats their issue not ours. Charge what you need to survive and what the market will support.
No one tells them what to charge and what to do yet somehow questiong them is wrong and all they do is justified.
Business is hard I personally don't care what their issues are. I as an advertiser and a reader just choose if I want to read it and if they do a good job.

You are in the public domain you can be criticized.
By the way I speak for me no one else but me.
we don't have to give anyone credit for anything. Participation trophys are for loosers .
Last I looked I have the right and the ability to express how I feel .

 

[XV-1]

I answered this!
Nevermind we dont seem to be able to communicate I can't say the things I want any clearer.
What is the difference between a Rockport Orion and a Wilson Alex V? how is that clear enough. Its not the comparison per se its the reality of the 5 speakers that graced the cover over the last 6 months or so.
I dont care which you like I want to know what one does or doesnt and the other does or doesnt do. Ill decide which I want. Saying both are wonderful is worthless IMO

Perhaps now that Fremer is working at TAS, we may get more comparative reviews. He certainly did this for Stereophile.
This will certainly be a positive change to the advertorials that seem to grace TAS these days.

 

[Al M.]

Perhaps now that Fremer is working at TAS, we may get more comparative reviews. He certainly did this for Stereophile.
This will certainly be a positive change to the advertorials that seem to grace TAS these days.

Or he will be subjugated to the commercial machine.

 

[Another Johnson]

Obviously @Elliot G. has had some bad experiences with trying to get reviews for gear he has interest in.

It’s hard to imagine that bashing the magazines is going to help with this problem. But, we are all free to say what we want here. Moderation is light handed.

My own opinion is that the reviews are for entertainment, and it’s fun to read them for whatever nuggets they offer. If they tend to suggest that one might like the gear because it is wonderful, without specifically comparing what the sonic differences are, it may be because there are so many variables that strong assertions are meaningless outside the context of the reviewers system. This is certainly what I’ve found to be true.

 

[Salectric]

Perhaps now that Fremer is working at TAS, we may get more comparative reviews. He certainly did this for Stereophile.
This will certainly be a positive change to the advertorials that seem to grace TAS these days.

Maybe, maybe not. Framer’s review in the current TAS of the Esoteric Grandioso T1 makes only a brief reference to two other tables—the Caliburn (and I am not sure he still owns it) and an OMA prototype. His reviews in Stereophile had more comparative descriptions. This one in TAS follows the recent trend where the review basically just says “it sounds really good.”

 

[tima]

What I was actually saying is that after years of people trying to justify what they bought or to get some consensus as to what they buy they have been deceived by the process of the "review"
I sincerely don't think you want me to go into the reviewers book in an open forum. Be careful you don't open Pandoras box.

Actually you wrote this as well:

Audiophiles are unhappy becasue what they have doesnt do it for them. Set up is a major part but so is the knowledge to select product with more expertise.

I was actually agreeing with you. You are such a coot in your haste to reply that you don't read.

What I was actually saying is that after years of people trying to justify what they bought or to get some consensus as to what they buy they have been deceived by the process of the "review"
I sincerely don't think you want me to go into the reviewers book in an open forum. Be careful you don't open Pandoras box.

Hey knock yourself out -- no fear of pandora here. Open whatever box you want.

 

[PeterA]

Hey knock yourself out -- no fear of pandora here. Open whatever box you want.

Elliot, I agree with Tim. If you care to share your thoughts with us, go ahead.

 

[tima]

The magazines are for profit
The magazines charge for adds
The magazines pay for nothing on a review- absolutely nothing- of the costs associated yet receive benefits from this

It's no different here.

 

[Kingrex]

Wilson XVX, Magico M-9, Gobel Divin Noblesse, Rockport Orion, Stenheim, Burmeister, T&A, Estelon and maybe a few I missed all in the last few months. Maybe I am missing a few .


"They all are certainly speakers one should consider" this quote is from Julien Hirsch circa 1970

Are you saying these are speakers that reviewers own? For the type of speaker they are, they are supposed to be good. I have heard Wilsons, Magico, Rockport, Stenheim and Estelon in a home environment. I thought they all performed very well. They have a sound. Very full, complete and aplomb with bass. You don't need subs.

I personally gravitate to a different sound, but I fully get how these speakers sell. I like a horn, open baffle, Magnepan type speaker. I have never heard any of the ones I like charge a room with bass energy like the others above. I have heard the ones I like present mid bass, mids and high with amazing resolution. In ways I have not heard the others do. But I have never heard any that I gravitate too present bass with the same type of force and authority. Yes Bonzo, I have not heard them all.

I don't know if its marketing or personal taste, but I rarely run across speakers I gravitate to at customers homes. That sort of says to me, the magazines are focusing on speakers the broader market seems to like and purchase. Maybe your saying they own them because they don't know better. Maybe some truth to it.

I would love to see more coverage of horns and low power amps. Maybe even an offshoot evey other month supplemental subscription. I would like to see more on tuning a system, not just gear. Support information for the hobby. But money talks. If 2 out of 10 audiophile see it as I do, the revenue outlay does not support the generated revenue. My hunch is these tabloids operate on a very thin margin. I have heard what reviewers earn per submission. Non could ever write for audio as a priary occupation. Ergo, we get the meat and potato equipment reviews.

Let me throw this out to digest. Robert does a video on his room and some of the gallery had a melt down. Its almost as if any out of the ordinary journalism is met with spit and fire. This whole industry and the consumers that surround audio are a hostile bunch. Everyone is an expert and everyone else is an idiot. In an environment like ours, if I had a business to run, I would stick to a tested formula that works.

 

[Another Johnson]

I’m not sure what to make of this … but I went to Elliot’s web site

Home - Bending Wave USA

Bending Wave USA Audiophile Professionals. Offering High-End Audio Products, CH Precision, Göbel Speakers, Wadax, & Esoteric. (954) 579-7463.

www.bendingwaveusa.com

and there I found, as a highlight on the home page, a very favorable TAS review (Feb 2023 issue), in fact a Cover Story focused on a $250k speaker that he imports. He is even mentioned in the article. The review was by Robert Harley at Robert Harley’s and Elliot is reported to have visited to help oversee the set up.

RH shares many observations about manufacturing, sound and design, and he closes with the recommendation that these should be on your list if you’re considering other speakers in this price range.

I thought it was a good review. It piqued my interest in the company far more than any amount of reviewer bashing ever could. YMMV

 

[Al M.]

I’m not sure what to make of this … but I went to Elliot’s web site

Home - Bending Wave USA

Bending Wave USA Audiophile Professionals. Offering High-End Audio Products, CH Precision, Göbel Speakers, Wadax, & Esoteric. (954) 579-7463.

www.bendingwaveusa.com

and there I found, as a highlight on the home page, a very favorable TAS review (Feb 2023 issue), in fact a Cover Story focused on a $250k speaker that he imports. He is even mentioned in the article. The review was by Robert Harley at Robert Harley’s and Elliot is reported to have visited to help oversee the set up.

RH shares many observations about manufacturing, sound and design, and he closes with the recommendation that these should be on your list if you’re considering other speakers in this price range.

I thought it was a good review. It piqued my interest in the company far more than any amount of reviewer bashing ever could. YMMV

Yes, that was an interesting review. It gives you an idea of what the speaker may sound like, and it points to the areas that you should pay attention to were you in the market for it and would audition it.

 

[PeterA]

Perhaps the review was not rave enough. On the cover but no declaration that they are better than Magico or Wilson. Worthy of being auditioned along with others does not sound too convincing.

 

[Ron Resnick]

On the cover but no declaration that they are better than Magico or Wilson.

It would be arrogant and intellectually dishonest for any reviewer to declare as a matter of fact that one top-of-the-line speaker is "better" than another top-of-the-line speaker.

Robert certainly could reveal which loudspeaker he personally, subjectively, prefers. This he does not do, probably out of respect for his advertisers.