"Long-Term Equipment Loans: A Win-Win for Everyone" by Robert Harley, The Absolute Sound

[caesar]

This is an over-reach. It is enough if it is disclosed that the component was purchased. We can assume it was purchased at some accommodation price.

sorry, Ron. I respectfully disagree. as is obvious from this thread, and most others about "audio journalists", no one who has experience of finding gear in the industry respects these disgusting individuals

 

[Lee]

Good! I think comparisons are interesting to the readers.

It is my belief that at The Absolute Sound comparative reviews are, if not discouraged, they are not encouraged. Kudos to Michael and Don for conducting comparative reviews anyway.

I never saw any TAS policy discouraging comparisons. Valin does this a lot.

 

[caesar]

Any one know how much Fremer, Heilbrunn, jason Sirinius paid for the Wilsons and ancillaries?

 

[Ron Resnick]

I never saw any TAS policy discouraging comparisons.

I agree. There is no TAS written policy discouraging comparisons. That's why I wrote my post the way I did.

 

[Ron Resnick]

no one who has experience of finding gear in the industry respects these disgusting individuals

I reported this vile post for review.

 

[caesar]

I reported this vile post for review.

Hey Ron,
Sure, Ron. That's fine. But the reality is shooting the messenger won't solve any problems. What is really vile about this industry is the mis-information from the "audio journalists".

 

[Lee]

I guess its great that the few of you have purchased all your gear but this is sort of missing the big picture.
All the major players, at least here in the US, I dont know about overseas, have HUGE amounts of gear on long term loan, with no end in site.
That is the point that Ron was making and that the thread was about.
We are not talking about minor amounts. These are 7 figure plus loans. in some cases.
These are the main players at PF and TAS. I looked at Stereophile and for example JVS has a lot of stuff but I have no idea if he owns it. ( I doubt it) but I dont know.

THe point remains IMO that that much outstanding gear for that term can influence both indirectly and directly.

Can one bite the hand that feeds them?

Elliot,

If you stand firm on the opinion that the magazines are unfairly biased via long-term loans, are you willing to stop advertising at all magazines? Are you willing to halt sending any gear into review as well?

Is Oliver Goebel willing to stop advertising In all audio magazines?

 

[Lee]

Any one know how much Fremer, Heilbrunn, jason Sirinius paid for the Wilsons and ancillaries?

I can answer this for at least some of their gear. They paid standard accommodation price, 45-55% off.

 

[Salectric]

@Lee
Thank you for your candor and your patience in this thread.

 

[caesar]

A comparison between two things, neither of which is known intimately to the consumer, is just noise. Until you try these things for yourself, what the reviewer thinks is just entertainment.

I respectfully disagree. A comparison helps differentiate the products. And , furthermore, a person can potentially get experience with the mentioned products upon reading the comparison. Yet, I do agree that the more experience one has with the product , the more value one gets from reading.

However, with no comparisons, we may all just be reading content generated from chatbot gpt. It can just regurgitate the manual, and add things like "greatest bass I've heard".... "best transparency" .... the typical raving garbage those guys publish...

What value will the reviewer add? Feel and rub the knob?

Interestingly , I remember reading a press release not too long ago that the Analytical Sound had hired an executive that is an AI expert. As Valin is getting pretty old, maybe they can train it to present his style...

 

[Elliot G.]

I respectfully disagree. A comparison helps differentiate the products. And , furthermore, a person can potentially get experience with the mentioned products upon reading the comparison. Yet, I do agree that the more experience one has with the product , the more value one gets from reading.

However, with no comparisons, we may all just be reading content generated from chatbot gpt. It can just regurgitate the manual, and add things like "greatest bass I've heard".... "best transparency" .... the typical raving garbage those guys publish...

What value will the reviewer add? Feel and rub the knob?

Interestingly , I remember reading a press release not too long ago that the Analytical Sound had hired an executive that is an AI expert. As Valin is getting pretty old, maybe they can train it to present his style...

In my opinion if we are bothering to read a review what exactly are we expecting from the author?
To write articles with say a speaker every month, listening to the same recorded music and writing a nice discription is to me worthless.
If you arent comparing the sound in your room to live music then what exactly are you reviewing?
TAS has had 4 or 5 major speakers on the cover over the last six months or so and yet there IMO is not differeniating them .

IS there a reason for this?
Isn't this their job and or purpose? Isn't an expert supposed to be able to do this? If everything is "certainly something you should consider then haven't we gone full circle back to before TAS and Stereophile were born? High Fidelity and Stereo review basically did that and that is why the new critical listening position started.

What does a Rockport Orion do that a Gobel Divin Noblesse or The Burmester don't do or visa versa. How do Magico and Wilson fit in this group.
If all the bottles of wine taste great which one should I buy? aren't their differences? Are all the Steakhouses good why is one better than another? Why do I want to drive a Porsche rather than a Benz or BMW or Ferrari? In every other Industry they point out the differences and the value, why not here? If they can't then please tell me thier purpose? Is it the Absolute its GOOD? The Stereophile of equality? OMG
Of course there are differences. When any of us listen to them we all notice diffeneces and we aren't getting paid to review them. Just one mans view of course.
So why is this the way it is?

 

[Lee]

In my opinion if we are bothering to read a review what exactly are we expecting from the author?
To write articles with say a speaker every month, listening to the same recorded music and writing a nice discription is to me worthless.
If you arent comparing the sound in your room to live music then what exactly are you reviewing?
TAS has had 4 or 5 major speakers on the cover over the last six months or so and yet there IMO is not differeniating them .

IS there a reason for this?
Isn't this their job and or purpose? Isn't an expert supposed to be able to do this? If everything is "certainly something you should consider then haven't we gone full circle back to before TAS and Stereophile were born? High Fidelity and Stereo review basically did that and that is why the new critical listening position started.

What does a Rockport Orion do that a Gobel Divin Noblesse or The Burmester don't do or visa versa. How do Magico and Wilson fit in this group.
If all the bottles of wine taste great which one should I buy? aren't their differences? Are all the Steakhouses good why is one better than another? Why do I want to drive a Porsche rather than a Benz or BMW or Ferrari? In every other Industry they point out the differences and the value, why not here? If they can't then please tell me thier purpose? Is it the Absolute its GOOD? The Stereophile of equality? OMG
Of course there are differences. When any of us listen to them we all notice diffeneces and we aren't getting paid to review them. Just one mans view of course.
So why is this the way it is?

Elliot,

It's such a subjective hobby and there are hundreds of choices in electronics and speakers. I would humbly suggest that TAS and Stereophile are generally speaking giving the first seal of approval by reviewing the new item. If the reviewer really likes the item then it may be voted on for a Product of the Year, Editor's Choice, or Recommended Components by class.

But at the end of the day, it's up to the consumer to use the reviews to create a short list and then go have a listen for themselves and make decisions on personal preferences.

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot,

It's such a subjective hobby and there are hundreds of choices in electronics and speakers. I would humbly suggest that TAS and Stereophile are generally speaking giving the first seal of approval by reviewing the new item. If the reviewer really likes the item then it may be voted on for a Product of the Year, Editor's Choice, or Recommended Components by class.

But at the end of the day, it's up to the consumer to use the reviews to create a short list and then go have a listen for themselves and make decisions on personal preferences.

Well your acceptance level is far lower than mine and definition of expertise as well.
I don't care what they like but I would rather they tell me ( since they call themselves experts) what something does or doesn't do.
I don't see the value if they dont at least to me. There are reviewers that speak the difference and what components do or don't.
May be people don't want anything more than a ATTABOY or a permission slip to enjoy what they buy.
I don't see this a great service sorry. Its not what I knew or what I was taught.
The more people want to argue thats its all good diminishes the work of those who can do better.

If one likes any steakhouse and thier all good then how do we choose? Is the cheapest one the best? Where is the value?
If one has a job to do then IMO you should be able to do it and do it to the best of your ability not to some mediocre standard. Just my opinion.
I am not a defender of anything that doesn't deserve it.
All high end is not the same yet the latest generation of the review process really make them have less value.
Why but an XVX or an M9 versus a Rockport or a Vivid or a Gobel or a Band W for that matter?
All we are left with is endless arguements that go no where. Sorry but I don;t buy that maybe its good enough for you its not for me.
By the way most consumers truly don't know that is why they look for help and IMO they dont get it.
Fact most Audiophiles are constantly looking to make improvements why? Simple they aen't thrilled with what they have.


Lee please tell me how do you define a professional?

 

[Lee]

Well your acceptance level is far lower than mine and definition of expertise as well.
I don't care what they like but I would rather they tell me ( since they call themselves experts) what something does or doesn't do.
I don't see the value if they dont at least to me. There are reviewers that speak the difference and what components do or don't.
May be people don't want anything more than a ATTABOY or a permission slip to enjoy what they buy.
I don't see this a great service sorry. Its not what I knew or what I was taught.
The more people want to argue thats its all good diminishes the work of those who can do better.

If one likes any steakhouse and thier all good then how do we choose? Is the cheapest one the best? Where is the value?
If one has a job to do then IMO you should be able to do it and do it to the best of your ability not to some mediocre standard. Just my opinion.
I am not a defender of anything that doesn't deserve it.
All high end is not the same yet the latest generation of the review process really make them have less value.
Why but an XVX or an M9 versus a Rockport or a Vivid or a Gobel or a Band W for that matter?
All we are left with is endless arguements that go no where. Sorry but I don;t buy that maybe its good enough for you its not for me.
By the way most consumers truly don't know that is why they look for help and IMO they dont get it.
Fact most Audiophiles are constantly looking to make improvements why? Simple they aen't thrilled with what they have.


Lee please tell me how do you define a professional?

I think one reason audiophiles at all levels are unhappy is the lack of a really good setup. The amount of high quality setups I see is very rare.

Reviews do say what things are good and not so good so I am not sure I am following what you say.

Are you saying that there needs to be more comparisons?

I believe a professional has expertise and experience...and in the case of a reviewer some decent writing skills and a decent level of enthusiasm. Passion draws people in.

 

[Elliot G.]

I think one reason audiophiles at all levels are unhappy is the lack of a really good setup. The amount of high quality setups I see is very rare.

Reviews do say what things are good and not so good so I am not sure I am following what you say.

Are you saying that there needs to be more comparisons?

I believe a professional has expertise and experience...and in the case of a reviewer some decent writing skills and a decent level of enthusiasm. Passion draws people in.

Nevermind we dont seem to be able to communicate I can't say the things I want any clearer.
What is the difference between a Rockport Orion and a Wilson Alex V? how is that clear enough. Its not the comparison per se its the reality of the 5 speakers that graced the cover over the last 6 months or so.
I dont care which you like I want to know what one does or doesnt and the other does or doesnt do. Ill decide which I want. Saying both are wonderful is worthless IMO. The first 3/4 of all the reviews are just product boilerplate. I can get that from the companies information.
By the way the reason there are so many bad set ups is really quite the same answer. The answer is lack of expertise and professionalism.
You may not like it but the truth is what it is. I realize you are a defender of the faith and the dropper of names but this really does not address the point I am making nor soving the issues.

Audiophiles are unhappy becasue what they have doesnt do it for them. Set up is a major part but so is the knowledge to select product with more expertise.
If I just read TAS and saw the speakers over the last 5 oe 6 issues and I coould afford any of them how did TAS help me make a choice?
It didn'tsorry it just did the best for TAS not to offend anyone.
Opps I said it!

 

[Lee]

Nevermind we dont seem to be able to communicate I can't say the things I want any clearer.
What is the difference between a Rockport Orion and a Wilson Alex V? how is that clear enough. Its not the comparison per se its the reality of the 5 speakers that graced the cover over the last 6 months or so.
I dont care which you like I want to know what one does or doesnt and the other does or doesnt do. Ill decide which I want. Saying both are wonderful is worthless IMO. The first 3/4 of all the reviews are just product boilerplate. I can get that from the companies information.
By the way the reason there are so many bad set ups is really quite the same answer. The answer is lack of expertise and professionalism.
You may not like it but the truth is what it is. I realize you are a defender of the faith and the dropper of names but this really does not address the point I am making nor soving the issues.

Audiophiles are unhappy becasue what they have doesnt do it for them. Set up is a major part but so is the knowledge to select product with more expertise.
If I just read TAS and saw the speakers over the last 5 oe 6 issues and I coould afford any of them how did TAS help me make a choice?
It didn'tsorry it just did the best for TAS not to offend anyone.
Opps I said it!

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

My goal on the forum has been to present another side of the argument, things like how “print magazines” have become media companies, how manufacturers are seeing cost increases that have to filter into higher prices, how the ultra-luxury segment is driving flagship speakers but also value in trickle-down tech, etc.

As you know, I no longer work for TAS but I also know how things work behind the scenes there and I do believe that Tom and the editorial staff are thinking, talking, and debating a lot about how to bring value to the readers. And I differ on 3/4 of the review being boilerplate. Take Harley’s tech sidebars, for instance. He is explaining in plain English how some new technology really works and what is the impact on sound. I think that’s useful context for readers.

If this makes me unpopular with the forum then so be it. In the words of Dave Chappelle, “the internet isn’t a real place.”

As for dropping names, that‘s an unfair comment as when I mention names it is to give people here a reference of where my experience and learning in part comes from. I am not showing off that I know a few people in the industry. There are many others who have a bigger network than I do.

And it’s disappointing that you did not answer my specific question on what you are looking for and if comparisons played a role. I was genuinely trying to understand your thinking and respond with a thoughtful answer.

 

[adyc]

I can answer this for at least some of their gear. They paid standard accommodation price, 45-55% off.

I think that’s quite fair. I believe manufacturers sold their products to distributors at 45-55% of MSRP.

 

[tima]

If you arent comparing the sound in your room to live music then what exactly are you reviewing?

You can compare how your system sounds with component X in it to:
- your memory template of how live music sounds, or
- how your system sounds with component Y in it.

Whether you consider such comparisons as reviews is up to you, but readers say they enjoy reading comparisons. Imo, relative comparisons alone are not sufficient to a review. As I've said before, reviews should be expository.

The first 3/4 of all the reviews are just product boilerplate. I can get that from the companies information.

Well, maybe the first 1/2, if all you do is rely on marketing material. But an account of product specifications is only part of the story. What is different is you have a person who has experience with other products and who is not the manufacturer's marketing agent actually looking at the product under review and describing what they find. Ease of use / ergonomics and compatibility or incompatability with other products can be a factor. The reviewer can tell you his real-world experience using the product.

Audiophiles are unhappy becasue what they have doesnt do it for them. Set up is a major part but so is the knowledge to select product with more expertise.

Here you are talking your book. That's understandable as that is what a dealer can offer in the context of the products they sell, if it is done in the context of the user's system as a whole. It's your potential for value-add.

Here's a question for you: would you loan a reviewer a component for use as the compared-to product in a review?

 

[Kingrex]

Do the reviewers of major rags have similar brand gear, or do they have all sorts of different equipment? Its more a curiosity question. I believe every single manufacturer will give a reviewer a dealer price on equipment purchase. So its not like a major brand has some back door lobbying power others don't. The curiosity is if its all similar stuff, why do they like it so much. If they do all have similar stuff, then it makes sense why these magazine seem to visit the same gear year after year after year as the reviewers get updated models.

I have noticed some brands catch on. Estelon is one. I heard it at Fremers house and really liked it. In the last couple years I have seen it get a lot of press.

Maybe a lot of bitching about what gets press coverage is some sort of conspiracy is not all that accurate. Maybe the gear that gets coverage has something to it. Maybe it presents in a way vocal forum posters don't like. But that doesn't mean a lot of other people don't find it pleasing.

 

[Elliot G.]

Here you are talking your book. That's understandable as that is what a dealer can offer in the context of the products they sell, if it is done in the context of the user's system as a whole. It's your potential for value-add.

Perhaps if that is how you see it.What I was actually saying is that after years of people trying to justify what they bought or to get some consensus as to what they buy they have been deceived by the process of the "review"
I sincerely don't think you want me to go into the reviewers book in an open forum. Be careful you don't open Pandoras box.