Introducing Olympus & Olympus I/O - A new perspective on modern music playback

Kris said:

I am not sure if they would calculate it the way you do it.
This would not make sense to ask 20 k for 9% you are referring to.
Switch for 2500 did that kind of improvement.
I believe they checked just the difference Olympus xdmi v Olympus + Olympus IO xdmi
I was in PM contact with Emile an I believe he confirmed 25% difference between those two.
If I misunderstood I am sure he will correct me.

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If one reads the quoted improvement percentage language literally, VPN's rather than Kris' interpretation appears to be a bit more logical: 275% (Olympus) and 300% (+ I/O) XDMI improvement compared to Extreme's 100% (USB) logically (in terms of semantics) does not read 25% improvement of I/O over Olympus. It may be, but the way it was phrased does not entail it. Emile has not stated in writing on a public forum (not to my knowledge) that I/O addition would result in 25% improvement over Olympus. (He wrote that it was very difficult to compare XDMI with USB presumably because of the very different sound signatures.) Would love to hear from the "horse's mouth." I doubt either guy's math is "accurate" and suspect the "truth" is somewhere in between 9% and 25%. The percentages were mere estimates, quite subjective, somewhat "wild" and not readily verifiable. SQ is more often than not or mostly in the ears of the listener. I tried to estimate each of my component's contribution to the system's SQ but did not have much faith in my own estimates (even though I am intimately familiar with the system). It is always subjective whether an upgrade is worth the cost (there are people spending $100K just to get 5%-10% SQ improvement). For my Horizon, as an example, the costs of using a set of new tubes were similar to the cost of having the Router, but the new tubes have transformed my Horizon (resulting in vastly improved transparency, naturalness and dynamics) - I have not heard it in its full glory until recently. If you think you know the sound of the Horizon with stock tubes, you owe yourself to listen to the "new" Horizon with the kind of NOS tubes discussed on the Horizon tube rolling forum since last June. $7K or so (roughly including the T&P adapters) cost in my case is very worthwhile in my experience (in consideration of the 46K euro retail price with stock tubes, $7K tube upgrade resulting in roughly 50% jump in Horizon's SQ is definitely worthwhile), again subjective (to my ears and in my system; some did not find such tubes working for them). Cannot wait if my retubed Horizon reaches Mount Olympus with the native XDMI connection with Olympus, at the cost of roughly $40K+ (with Extreme trade-in, not including the I/O). Worth it? Only time can tell and even so the view would be personal. One has to be tempered by the realization that the metaphoric Mount Olympus is a path or journey rather than a destination of sonic nirvana; there will be another yonder mount to reach, a realm without end as is the universe.

While performance differences measured in relative percentages provide a practical means to illustrate the improvements to expect, as MolaDiego mentions, they are not mathematically verifiable. Indeed, they are subjective estimates that provide a handle on the value of relative differences that are otherwise difficult to bring across. As we move forward in time and more options and upgrades are released, comparing earlier percentages to later ones becomes ever more abstract. The wheels are moving very quickly at Taiko HQ! Although Emile is admittedly very good at providing relative percentages, I would recommend using them only as a rough guide, not as gospel

Christiaan Punter said:

While performance differences measured in relative percentages provide a practical means to illustrate the improvements to expect, as MolaDiego mentions, they are not mathematically verifiable. Indeed, they are subjective estimates that provide a handle on the value of relative differences that are otherwise difficult to bring across. As we move forward in time and more options and upgrades are released, comparing earlier percentages to later ones becomes ever more abstract. The wheels are moving very quickly at Taiko HQ! Although Emile is admittedly very good at providing relative percentages, I would recommend using them only as a rough guide, not as gospel

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Exactly, Christiaan took the thought right out of my brain.
Come on, guys! You cannot use a mathematical % to correlate a subjective, and emotional response! We are listening to music, after all, not building a financial model.
It’s also highly subjective and biased… so even if the % made sense, it will vary from person to person.
Of course getting the latest and greatest from Taiko will sound better, that’s a given! There are no diminishing returns if you buy the right components in high-end audio. You spend more, you get more. The concept of diminishing returns was fabricated by those who do not, or cannot, spend more.

Zeotrope said:

Exactly, Christiaan took the thought right out of my brain.
Come on, guys! You cannot use a mathematical % to correlate a subjective, and emotional response! We are listening to music, after all, not building a financial model.
It’s also highly subjective and biased… so even if the % made sense, it will vary from person to person.
Of course getting the latest and greatest from Taiko will sound better, that’s a given! There are no diminishing returns if you buy the right components in high-end audio. You spend more, you get more. The concept of diminishing returns was fabricated by those who do not, or cannot, spend more.

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Even the meaning or interpretation of "diminished returns" is subjective. I don't view it as in the pejorative sense you had in mind. Moving from O to I/O may be a diminished return (understood in a neutral sense) as I recall Emile's description of I/O: "When you add the I/O to the Olympus you increase isolation levels a bit more, no rfi/emi pickup from other hardware, a few degrees lower operating temperatures, doubled up battery power/isolation, it does improve things a but further but not as much as it does for the Extreme." It all depends on one's wallet size, willingness to pay a huge premium to get just 9% improvement (not saying I/O's improvement is 9%; only as an example) and priorities of life (you can spend 20K exploring the world instead), etc. You will get a HUGE jump by upgrading from Schiiit DAC to Lampi Horizon DAC, or from Rockna server (both of which I had at the start) to the Extreme, but from Extreme to O, and esp. from O to I/O (speculative ATM) may be a kind of diminished return in comparison to the move from Schiit or Rochna. Nothing bad with the use of "diminished return" in this context because both the manufacturers and the end users would need to incur disproportionately more expenses to move from the exalted levels of Horizon and Extreme. BTW, spending more and getting more is not always true; some fancy products do not pan out. I heard the $190K Schweikert Ultra 7speakers; I prefer my cheaper (1/3 price) speakers - there you go, subjective here too.

Moladiego said:

Even the meaning or interpretation of "diminished returns" is subjective. I don't view it as in the pejorative sense you had in mind. Moving from O to I/O may be a diminished return (understood in a neutral sense) as I recall Emile's description of I/O: "When you add the I/O to the Olympus you increase isolation levels a bit more, no rfi/emi pickup from other hardware, a few degrees lower operating temperatures, doubled up battery power/isolation, it does improve things a but further but not as much as it does for the Extreme." It all depends on one's wallet size, willingness to pay a huge premium to get just 9% improvement (not saying I/O's improvement is 9%; only as an example) and priorities of life (you can spend 20K exploring the world instead), etc. You will get a HUGE jump by upgrading from Schiiit DAC to Lampi Horizon DAC, or from Rockna server (both of which I had at the start) to the Extreme, but from Extreme to O, and esp. from O to I/O (speculative ATM) may be a kind of diminished return in comparison to the move from Schiit or Rochna. Nothing bad with the use of "diminished return" in this context because both the manufacturers and the end users would need to incur disproportionately more expenses to move from the exalted levels of Horizon and Extreme. BTW, spending more and getting more is not always true; some fancy products do not pan out. I heard the $190K Schweikert Ultra 7speakers; I prefer my cheaper (1/3 price) speakers - there you go, subjective here too.

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I look at the entire Taiko scene in a much more simplistic approach. To me the statements which echo in my mind are not these silly percentages which to me are absolutely meaningless. I hinge my total support and faith in Emile who said many months ago that the two biggest upticks in SQ are NSM at number two and the BPS at number one. 'Nuf' said. Im all in as Emile convinced me with those two statements.

There will be early adopters just as there are with any new component. Data points will come from these adopters but the bottom line is these are merely data points as YMMV because it is all system specific as well as preference. I think these debates about percentages better than others is simply useless. "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" My appetite grows daily as the ship to date is rapidly approaching. Let's circle the wagons at that point and talk then. Everything else is just talk IMHO

Steve Williams said:

I look at the entire Taiko scene in a much more simplistic approach. To me the statements which echo in my mind are not these silly percentages which to me are absolutely meaningless. I hinge my total support and faith in Emile who said many months ago that the two biggest upticks in SQ are NSM at number two and the BPS at number one. 'Nuf' said. Im all in as Emile convinced me with those two statements.

There will be early adopters just as there are with any new component. Data points will come from these adopters but the bottom line is these are merely data points as YMMV because it is all system specific as well as preference. I think these debates about percentages better than others is simply useless. "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" My appetite grows daily as the ship to date is rapidly approaching. Let's circle the wagons at that point and talk then. Everything else is just talk IMHO

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Steve, we all need to realize that your talk as well as mine is just your talk (and mine) - personal, subjective. Same goes for your or early adopters' feedback and "percentages". Same goes for your wagon and appetite. They are all equally useful and useless, meaningful and meaningless. Only one's own ears and priorities matter in the end because one listens to and lives with his own system.

Moladiego said:

Steve, we all need to realize that your talk as well as mine is just your talk (and mine) - personal, subjective. Same goes for your or early adopters' feedback and "percentages". Same goes for your wagon and appetite. They are all equally useful or useless, meaningful and meaningless. Only one's own ears and priorities matter in the end because one listens to and lives with his own system.

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Actually not. My talk is a quote from Emile many months ago. I would say forget the talk and listen. I think we agree there. What I think is silly to discuss is percentage uptick one component vs another.

Wait, what?! You mean I'm not going to get my 300% SQ increase with the O + I/O upgrade? I've been counting on that (and eager to hear just what 300% could possibly mean).

Percentages just allow us to talk about something in the absense of experience or other’s field reports. Making decisions based on these place holders is the debatable part.

Steve, any ideas when your get together will happen?

jbrrp1 said:

Wait, what?! You mean I'm not going to get my 300% SQ increase with the O + I/O upgrade? I've been counting on that (and eager to hear just what 300% could possibly mean).

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Proving the numbers wrong is the tricky part . Often we hear talk of 5, 10, or a bold 20% claim when discussing upgrades. So triple digit claims from the usually even keeled Emile does warrant some attention. If the switch was a proclaimed 15%, and that is the yardstick, I’m getting ready with my bag of popcorn.

Tuckia said:

Proving the numbers wrong is the tricky part . Often we hear talk of 5, 10, or a bold 20% claim when discussing upgrades. So triple digit claims from the usually even keeled Emile does warrant some attention. If the switch was a proclaimed 15%, and that is the yardstick, I’m getting ready with my bag of popcorn.

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Yeah. I'll need to buy some Depends that are my size before I fire it up...

Steve Williams said:

Actually not. My talk is a quote from Emile many months ago. I would say forget the talk and listen. I think we agree there. What I think is silly to discuss is percentage uptick one component vs another.

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Steve, in the end it is all TALK - including talk from manufacturers. End user talk, manufacture talk, dealer talk, promoter talk and so on. Your talk won't end talk. This forum is for talk (controlled as it is). There are differences there - some talk has hidden (not obvious) motives and incentives (manufacturers need to market and sell products; dealers, including de facto dealers, get paid based on sales or promotion, obviously biased). Some talk involves conflicts of interest. In the end, one learns from experience (certain guys' opinions are more reliable than others' and certain manufacturers' products are more trustworthy than others', etc. from my experience). All personal.

we seem to be saying the same thing Ray, if you want the last word, you've got it. It's all yours

jbrrp1 said:

Wait, what?! You mean I'm not going to get my 300% SQ increase with the O + I/O upgrade? I've been counting on that (and eager to hear just what 300% could possibly mean).

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Indeed, same for 2x+ soundstage. My room is 17x 16 x 9'. I already have wall-to-wall soundstage from the Extreme-Horizon combo. 2x soundstage would tear down the boundary of my room and fill up the whole house? I need to work 10x hard to get a much bigger room/house for the 10x explosion of soundstage. Tongue in cheek

Steve Williams said:

we seem to be saying the same thing Ray, if you want the last word, you've got it. It's all yours

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Were we saying the same thing? Last word belongs to you, Steve, as the elder stateman, site owner and mega sized influencer.

Ray. TBH we were saying the anything. I said forget the talk and use your ears. People always have opinions but when it comes to my sound system, the only thing that matters is how it sounds to me in my own room. My mantra has always been “am I hearing something better or merely something different.. and if better, how so?”. I’ve lived by that credo forever. Bottom line for me is “ let my ears and my wallet dictate my choices“.

There is no final word yet I do place more credence on what people say about what they heard rather than how big an uptick. You commented that increased SQ affects sound stage. I dont believe a 3x increase in SQ causes a 3x increase in width of sound stage as you intimated At any rate I think I’ve made my point as have you so last word is yours

jbrrp1 said:

Yeah. I'll need to buy some Depends that are my size before I fire it up...

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If you first wave guys start talking in colors about your Olympus experiences, I’ll have to mortgage the house and order one before they are made illegal in this country for being too much fun.

Must be raining in SoCal yet

Steve Williams said:

Ray. TBH we were saying the anything. I said forget the talk and use your ears. People always have opinions but when it comes to my sound system, the only thing that matters is how it sounds to me in my own room. My mantra has always been “am I hearing something better or merely something different.. and if better, how so?”. I’ve lived by that credo forever. Bottom line for me is “ let my ears and my wallet dictate my choices“.

There is no final word yet I do place more credence on what people say about what they heard rather than how big an uptick. You commented that increased SQ affects sound stage. I dont believe a 3x increase in SQ causes a 3x increase in width of sound stage as you intimated At any rate I think I’ve made my point as have you so last word is yours

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No disagreement here except I don't hold a view attributed to me or the use of "final word" or "last word" - c'mon, is there the final word unless it is the Word or "logos" from the Gospel, John 1? Even so it is only for a certain sect of believers in the view of others; there are agnostics or non-believers and other sects of believers who hold equally strong (or even stronger) views in this small world. 2X+ soundstage expansion was the talk from the Taiko "gospel" (to borrow Punter's word), not from me. I don't believe in correlation (not in the same extent of x% margin) of SQ and soundstage (the comment was made tongue in cheek), just as I don't believe in the correlation of price and quality. Often a product is much more expensive simply because it is much more expensive to manufacture that product (certain parts are much harder and expensive to source) - the costs do not (necessarily or always) translate into SQ by the extent of the additional costs. Or one pays top premium for top brand (partially resulting from huge marketing and influencer expense and exposure). Too much talk leaves no or very little room for music. I missed the days in the 1990s when I discovered one masterpiece after another with a seriously subpar (by today's standard) system - where is the ecstasy of discovery with today's endless fuss over SQ? Have a good weekend!

Moladiego said:

Indeed, same for 2x+ soundstage. My room is 17x 16 x 9'. I already have wall-to-wall soundstage from the Extreme-Horizon combo. 2x soundstage would tear down the boundary of my room and fill up the whole house? I need to work 10x hard to get a much bigger room/house for the 10x explosion of soundstage. Tongue in cheek

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Wall to Wall?
This is not what I look for.
I already have 2x bigger Soundstage than my room is, with Extreme making it happen.
So the good news is you don't need a bigger room. You might need a better electronics, speakers or cables to open Extreme potential.