American Sound, "The Absolute Nothing"

cdk84 said:
@mtemur wrote about DDK having left this Forum, "Maybe he found it’s [ this forum ] not all fans but some questioners."

MTemur, are you acquainted with Mr Karmeli? With all respect due, I would submit that you do Not know DDK; if you Did, you would understand that he, among all the people I have met or known, in audio and elsewhere, is as interested in the spirit of true inquiry as anyone.
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I haven't met ddk so my prior comments below were limited to conversations over this forum.
- Answering in an authoritative, confident way in threads and end all arguments by condescending others with a commanding tone instead of reasonably and technically explaining why.
- Promoting the products you sell and disparage others badly.
I understand from your response that you're approving them.
cdk84 said:
For your consideration ( and I believe it safe to say you have not yet heard The Absolute Nothing, is that accurate? ) how could someone create an object of such remarkable purpose, distinction and singular performance ( Yes, I Have heard it ) if the spirit of inquiry —which inevitably includes dissenters and detractors— were not at the epicenter of their value system?

Looking forward to your response.
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I didn’t say AN turntable doesn’t sound great or sounds bad. Actually I haven't said anything about it at all. I bet it sounds great. There are many great sounding turntables out there but real question is; does it sound as good as it cost? Maybe it does I don't know but I'm sure marketing helps, not only for AN turntable but also for all the top tier products.
 
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@mtemur quoted his own, earlier post re: the questions I asked:


"- Answering in an authoritative, confident way in threads and end all arguments by condescending others with a commanding tone instead of reasonably and technically explaining why.
- Promoting the products you sell and disparage others badly."

It escapes me why you quoted someone other than me in our dialog. Why was that? My response to you was one of questioning ( 'Do you know Mr Karmeli?’; ‘Have you heard The Absolute Nothing turntable?’ ). It was neither condescending nor commanding in tone.

And I have No involvement in promoting Mr Karmeli’s product(s). I had the privilege of assisting in the assembly and setup of the first example of this turntable and being with Mr Karmeli and PeterA when the table was heard for the first time.

Please explain how that is either ‘ending [an] argument by condescending [ to ] others? ( were we having an argument? I raised the questions I asked in the same spirit of inquiry as I mention in Mr Karmeli’s approach to audio problem-soving )

Or how I was “promoting a product that I sell and disparaging others badly [ or even at all ]?

I am neither condescending in the questions I raise, nor am I a stooge for Mr Karmeli in promoting his products.

As before, I look forward to your response, and hope it more directly engages the questions I have posed than the post quoted above. My interest is in inquiry, in learning.

And I hope you get to hear The Absolute Nothing turntable. I certainly could not say for you —or for anyone else— whether it is worth the purchase price. That is only for a person themselves to determine. I’m simply grateful I had the chance to hear it, because that experience broadened my understanding.

Kind Regards
 
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cdk84 said:
@mtemur quoted his own, earlier post re: the questions I asked:


"- Answering in an authoritative, confident way in threads and end all arguments by condescending others with a commanding tone instead of reasonably and technically explaining why.
- Promoting the products you sell and disparage others badly."

It escapes me why you quoted someone other than me in our dialog. Why was that? My response to you was one of questioning ( 'Do you know Mr Karmeli?’; ‘Have you heard The Absolute Nothing turntable?’ ). It was neither condescending nor commanding in tone.

And I have No involvement in promoting Mr Karmeli’s product(s). I had the privilege of assisting in the assembly and setup of the first example of this turntable and being with Mr Karmeli and PeterA when the table was heard for the first time.

Please explain how that is either ‘ending [an] argument by condescending [ to ] others? ( were we having an argument? I raised the questions I asked in the same spirit of inquiry as I mention in Mr Karmeli’s approach to audio problem-soving )

Or how I was “promoting a product that I sell and disparaging others badly [ or even at all ]?

I am neither condescending in the questions I raise, nor am I a stooge for Mr Karmeli in promoting his products.

As before, I look forward to your response, and hope it more directly engages the questions I have posed than the post quoted above. My interest is in inquiry, in learning.

And I hope you get to hear The Absolute Nothing turntable. I certainly could not say for you —or for anyone else— whether it is worth the purchase price. That is only for a person themselves to determine. I’m simply grateful I had the chance to hear it, because that experience broadened my understanding.

Kind Regards
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Wow, you totally misunderstood. Please read my posts again or somebody else with better English than me can explain it to you.

I didn’t accuse you for anything or promoting AN turntable -although you’re promoting ddk- but that’s understandable. You know him as a great person and I believe you. I really do because I’m in no point of judging someone’s personality nor entitled to. Besides it’s not up to me or anybody here to reach conclusions about a person’s character without personally knowing him or her.

Keeping these in mind and as I said before, my comments were based on conversations and reactions of ddk on this forum. I’m hundred percent behind my words.

IMHO since you already heard AN turntable it would be better if you share how and why it affected you? and in which way? for the sake of topic.
 
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mtemur said:
- Answering in an authoritative, confident way in threads and end all arguments by condescending others with a commanding tone instead of reasonably and technically explaining why.
- Promoting the products you sell and disparage others badly.
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An authoritative confident reply can be part of a reasonable technical explanation or other explanation. I suppose some may find such a reply condescending -- there are a few here particularly sensitive to what they perceive as 'tone' and quick to claim offense. Since the forums are at least one step removed from personal interaction - just words on a page -- and despite the emojis and outside the most blatantly obvious attack, I find 'tone' largely a product of reader perception and not reflective of reply intent.

The quote above doesn't sound like you.
 
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@mtemur Thank you for your response. I am completely willing to accept that we did not communicate clearly.

And I may have misunderstood your intention. I can be sensitive to people’s language; it’s true.

And I am glad that I continued to ask questions rather than assume what you were thinking. I hope that has led, at least in part, to this improvement in our connection: after all, we are simply passionate about the same thing —the joy of music, yes?
 
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PeterA said:
The Absolute Nothing should be heard in the context of some other flagship turntables like the Air Force Zero, Esoteric and Nagra, but such comparisons rarely happen. I wonder what Michael Fremer would think. Very few of the AS2000s were ever heard before they were sold. Mine may be the only one actually. I suspect the same will be the case here.
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Add the Acoustic Signature Invictus Neo to the list ;-)

www.theabsolutesound.com

2023 Golden Ear: Acoustic Signature Invictus Neo Turntable and TA-9000 Neo Tonearm - The Absolute Sound

2023 Golden Ear: Acoustic Signature Invictus Neo Turntable and TA-9000 Neo Tonearm - Even though the original Invicti strongly reminded me of 15ips tape playback, the Neos come so much closer to that paragon of smooth, solid, continuous, organic high fidelity that it’s amazing.
www.theabsolutesound.com www.theabsolutesound.com
 
PeterA said:
The Absolute Nothing should be heard in the context of some other flagship turntables like the Air Force Zero, Esoteric and Nagra, but such comparisons rarely happen. I wonder what Michael Fremer would think. Very few of the AS2000s were ever heard before they were sold. Mine may be the only one actually. I suspect the same will be the case here.
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Did you hear Nagra, AF0, esoteric or is this based on a price perspective only
 
bonzo75 said:
Did you hear Nagra, AF0, esoteric or is this based on a price perspective only
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It is based on what I’ve read in reports, reviews, and in threads here from people like Mike Lavigne. I’m sure you would add the VYGER to the list. Flagship refers to the best efforts of various manufacturers. This is in that category.

I also think anyone considering one of these turntables would try to hear a couple other ones that he thinks are worth hearing based on whatever criteria he thinks are important.

I heard it directly compared to an AS 1000 in the same system. I know that turntable well, having lived with it in my system for a month. The AF1 does not compare based on what I heard myself and reading Tang’s reports. That is why I mentioned the AF0 and based on what Fremer wrote. The Nagra and Esoteric have gotten very positive reports.

It’s interesting that people are reading this thread again.
 
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PeterA said:
It is based on what I’ve read in reports, reviews, and in threads here from people like Mike Lavigne. I’m sure you would add the VYGER to the list.

I also think anyone considering one of these turntables would try to hear a couple other ones that he thinks are worth hearing based on whatever criteria he thinks are important.
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I have stopped making a list based on price where I think my sonically preferred components belong in. I could care less how Vyger compared to Nagra, AF0, etc.

In my mind a bit more of this and that is not more realism, as I said matching the right arm and cart is great and then you need very good recordings + performances and a transparent system. So I have zero interest now in any table above the price of Brinkmann balance for a pivoted arm. There could be some variances in sounds you can choose, like a nice idler, AF3, etc, I get that. I haven't heard Acoustic signature so that might fall there as well.

Vyger comes as a system so the arm and the synergistic cart for me are known, and the LT arm puts in a smaller set compared to the large pivoted table availability. So I have Vyger RS and a sensibly priced pivoted arm table with DaVa as my top two choices. Plus mono. And if you have more money, go 78s.

It would be great to hear Nagra and AF0 in a private efficient system set up with good recordings for a hobby tickbox.
 
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PeterA said:
It is based on what I’ve read in reports, reviews, and in threads here from people like Mike Lavigne. I’m sure you would add the VYGER to the list. Flagship refers to the best efforts of various manufacturers. This is in that category.

I also think anyone considering one of these turntables would try to hear a couple other ones that he thinks are worth hearing based on whatever criteria he thinks are important.

I heard it directly compared to an AS 1000 in the same system. I know that turntable well, having lived with it in my system for a month. The AF1 does not compare based on what I heard myself and reading Tang’s reports. That is why I mentioned the AF0 and based on what Fremer wrote. The Nagra and Esoteric have gotten very positive reports.

It’s interesting that people are reading this thread again.
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Hi Peter, if I am in the market for turntables in this price range, I would include the Acoustical Systems Astellar and Kuzma XL DC Air.

Interesting that you mentioned the AF1, I have auditioned it casually for a couple of times, and it’s just not my cup of tea. Not that it was bad, it just didn’t give me the wow experience that I expect from TTs in this price range. I actually preferred the Micro 8000 MK II to it! The AF0 is a different story, simply one of the best TTs to my ears!
 
PeterA said:
I heard it directly compared to an AS 1000 in the same system. I know that turntable well, having lived with it in my system for a month. The AF1 does not compare based on what I heard myself and reading Tang’s reports. That is why I mentioned the AF0 and based on what Fremer wrote. The Nagra and Esoteric have gotten very positive reports.

It’s interesting that people are reading this thread again.
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I did that AS 1000 to Techdas and Thorens Ref compare too, as well as compares for AS 2000 in Tang's system. In my mind, the best table in Tang's system would have been the one that would have DaVa vs Vyger RS. His biggest bang came from upgrading his records to good quality classical.
 
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thekong said:
Hi Peter, if I am in the market for turntables in this price range, I would include the Acoustical Systems Astellar and Kuzma XL DC Air.

Interesting that you mentioned the AF1, I have auditioned it casually for a couple of times, and it’s just not my cup of tea. Not that it was bad, it just didn’t give me the wow experience that I expect from TTs in this price range. I actually preferred the Micro 8000 MK II to it! The AF0 is a different story, simply one of the best TTs to my ears!
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I completely agree. I did not like the AF1 at all. I much preferred the Micro 8000 MK II.
 
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What's the price? Apologies if I missed it in the thread above.
 
sbo6 said:
What's the price? Apologies if I missed it in the thread above.
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100k AS2000 could have gone up with post pandemic inflation, and AS 3000 250k to 400k
 
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bonzo75 said:
I did that AS 1000 to Techdas and Thorens Ref compare too, as well as compares for AS 2000 in Tang's system. In my mind, the best table in Tang's system would have been the one that would have DaVa vs Vyger RS. His biggest bang came from upgrading his records to good quality classical.
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Tang made his choice and so did Rockitman. There are some very well written essays and opinions from those visitors to Utah, who made the same comparison that you did at David’s place, and from their reports, the differences were not very subtle. I lived with some of these turntables at my house and the differences were not subtle. Your visit to Utah was in the early days of your analog journey.

I agree with you that good recordings are very important. I’m saying that for a given recording collection, I would want the best playback equipment judged by my own values and opinion based on listening.
 
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PeterA said:
Tang made his choice and so did Rockitman. There are some very well written essays and opinions from those visitors to Utah, who made the same comparison that you did at David’s place, and from their reports, the differences were not very subtle. I lived with some of these turntables at my house and the differences were not subtle. Your visit to Utah was in the early days of your analog journey.

I agree with you that good recordings are very important.
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By that logic Mike, Marty, and Ron also made those same compares.

Tang made his choice between AF1p, Kronos, EMT 927 and AS2000 when he was not into recordings or classical. He would had the same outcome among those with good classical that he grew into later, does not mean a lower priced table with Dava and vyger RS would not have been as good or better. Some might prefer another cart.

What you are doing is no different from someone defending WAMM or M9. You choose your jewellery, to me a setting up a system for real sound, natural sound, and absolute sound can be done at lower prices as long as it is done right, rest is the person’s OCD.

I got in this discussion because the statement of yours that I replied to seemed to try and create a price bracket for status. This is no different to when other industry proponents list out 300k plus speakers as the Uber ones (to which you object, as do I)
 
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