American Sound, "The Absolute Nothing"

I am not talking only of value in price relative terms, but above a certain level you don’t get any sonic value more, apart from jewelry status. People might want to hope that spending 100k 200k on a TT and 300k to 1 million on a speaker is going to get the orchestra in a the room and a led zep reunion from 70s, it is not going to happen. Not only because of law of diminishing returns, there are no returns beyond a system set up point. The rest is pure OCD

It’s not hope if you care about it and listen and make your judgment and purchase decision based on your values and sound quality.

Personally, I would not buy an expensive turntable for status if I did not like the sound. I can’t speak for others. The turntables that I’ve listened to that all follow the high mass low bearing friction thread drive model, the more you spend the better it sounds. Every single time and the pinnacle in my experience is the Absolute Nothing. I have no idea if the AFO or esoteric or Nagra can compete with that. I would have to listen.
 
No it happens when one wants to say only one this is the ultimate (apologies, the club includes three other tables which haven’t been experienced by you) and requires 100k to 400k to get spent on it.

The criteria was flagship status, best efforts by the designer, not price or status. For all, I know the Garrard 401 or big Micro are better than the Nagra or Eoteric or even AF0. I know the micro is not better than the American sound turntables.
 
Personally, I would not buy an expensive turntable for status if I did not like the sound.

Sure, I get your point only this elite bucket produces ultimate sound
 
Oh … Really ! … Do you know the turntables being discussed ? , Do you have hands on experience of the turntables mentioned ? Do you really know Peter Ayer ? his motives and experience , Do you know Kedar and his motives and experience ?

Guys the level of WBF goes down the drain.

Afaik a audio discussion forums primary objective should be to discuss products that were listened too / acquired / discussed
 
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I dont know about all this hatred against the AN " absolute nothing " TT .
I suppose it must be good then lol .
Id love to hear that Kharma / lamm / AN tt set up , sounds good on You tube :cool:
AN TT2 & 3 are very good. Those work best in a all AN system in my opinion. If I ever decide to get another analog setup it will likely be a all Audio Note system.

I've never liked Nagra or Esoteric electronics so I never listened to their turntables. I've heard a Nagra tape machine years ago and that was pretty good.
 
AN TT2 & 3 are very good. Those work best in a all AN system in my opinion. If I ever decide to get another analog setup it will likely be a all Audio Note system.

I've never liked Nagra or Esoteric electronics so I never listened to their turntables. I've heard a Nagra tape machine years ago and that was pretty good.

AN in my post stood for Absolute Nothing not audio note sorry
 
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I will not buy what I cannot afford and I don't think I buy for status but for sonics within my affordability. My system today is less than what some pay for a single component -- and I am happy with it.
+1
This is an important post as we almost never discuss price for any of the ne ultra plus gear we like or covet.

I'm actually what you might call "cheap" and having been a dealer many, many years ago, I look for value and not just sonics. I love buying recently discontinued SOA products which generally can be had for 30 cents on the dollar. I kept a Goldmund Studio/T3 for 30 years that I bought for 3K. My 25K Zanden 1200 Mk III phono was bought for 6K, my 135K Wilson Alexandrias were bought for 45K and my 60K Soulution 725 preamp was bought for 20K. These are all gone now but man, they served me (and the music) very well. "Sonics within my affordability" plus great valuation is where most of us live. Thanks to Tim for pointing that out and reminding us that buying the most expensive gear is hardly the best approach in a hobby in which technology changes quickly but incrementally.
 
+1
This is an important post as we almost never discuss price for any of the ne ultra plus gear we like or covet.

I'm actually what you might call "cheap" and having been a dealer many, many years ago, I look for value and not just sonics. I love buying recently discontinued SOA products which generally can be had for 30 cents on the dollar. I kept a Goldmund Studio/T3 for 30 years that I bought for 3K. My 25K Zanden 1200 Mk III phono was bought for 6K, my 135K Wilson Alexandrias were bought for 45K and my 60K Soulution 725 preamp was bought for 20K. These are all gone now but man, they served me (and the music) very well. "Sonics within my affordability" plus great valuation is where most of us live. Thanks to Tim for pointing that out and reminding us that buying the most expensive gear is hardly the best approach in a hobby in which technology changes quickly but incrementally.

Yes indeed. The SME 3012R and Ching Chang power cords are prime examples, as are used Lamm electronics. Carefully chosen vintage gear can offer remarkable sound quality at reasonable prices for extraordinary value.

How much sound quality and listening experience have improved in the last 50-60 years would be the subject of a very interesting thread discussion.
 
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Sure, I get your point only this elite bucket produces ultimate sound

I don’t really know what you mean by ultimate sound. I do think there are different levels of presentation quality, but they do not correspond directly to price. There are many factors involved. That’s a whole different discussion for another thread.
 
Carefully chosen vintage gear can offer remarkable sound quality at reasonable prices for extraordinary value.

Fully agree .
After visiting a lot of ( dealer ) shows again the past years ( after a 13 year hiatus .)
I d say only the new Avantgarde G3 I - tron Horn/ bass combo stood out and the Wadax digital
For the rest ....... mostly magazine hype
 
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So I have zero interest now in any table above the price of Brinkmann balance for a pivoted arm. There could be some variances in sounds you can choose, like a nice idler, AF3, etc, I get that. I haven't heard Acoustic signature so that might fall there as well.

Vyger comes as a system so the arm and the synergistic cart for me are known, and the LT arm puts in a smaller set compared to the large pivoted table availability. So I have Vyger RS and a sensibly priced pivoted arm table with DaVa as my top two choices.

Have you narrowed it down to which decade you plan on purchasing a turntable?
 
Have you narrowed it down to which decade you plan on purchasing a turntable?
Meanwhile, I enjoy my system every night of the week. Life’s short. You never know when you’ll be run over by a truck.
 
How much sound quality and listening experience have improved in the last 50-60 years would be the subject of a very interesting thread discussion.
Agree. A great topic. I was talking to Myles Astor today about this very thing. The audio industry has as much interest in doing work like this as much as the pharma industry is interested in doing a study to see if salt intake can be effective for postural hypotension due low blood pressure.( Hint- you can't patent salt!) It would be wonderful to put a modern piece of electronics up against some of the giants of yesteryear in a meaningful comparative manner. If this is going to be done, it will likely only be done by an audio club or hobbyist with genuine interest.
 
David Karmeli has worked for five years on his latest, and likely, final turntable design, The Absolute Nothing. The name is based on the idea that the turntable does not add or remove anything from the information imbedded in the record groove. This is an ultra high mass thread drive design and the culmination of what David has learned about turntable design over the past several decades. To improve on the AS2000 design, he had to go to extremes.

Here are some of the details: The platter weighs 300 lbs. The base weighs about 600 lbs, the motor unit weighs about 100 lbs. The stand, an integral part of the design, weighs another 350 lbs or so. The motor casing is machined from a single block of stainless steel. It is the same Pabst motor as in the AS2000, but now has a three phase motor controller. Rather than the five digit speed display, the new turntable has a strobe on the platter. The massive platter floats on a cushion of air, just like the AS2000. The platter is wider and taller but can be driven easily by the thin thread for minimal contact with the motor pulley/flywheel. The massive base has an irregular pattern of facets on its surface that are designed to control the internal resonances in the base and draw them away from the platter. There are isolation devices integrated into the motor unit, the stand, the arm mounts, and the footers. The motor controller has a worm-drive mechanism that allows one to adjust the thread tension. Motor torque and speed can be fine tuned. Everything is designed with a purpose.

I first saw drawings for this turntable a couple of years ago. David has been working on this for the last five years. CDK84, a fellow WBF member, and I visited the factory and met David a month ago, and then again last week to oversee the move from the factory to the first owner's listening room. After helping to assemble the turntable, David set up the SME 3012R tonearm and Neumann cartridge.

It was clear from the moment the Neumann stylus hit the first groove that this turntable takes the presentation to the next level. There is an uncanny calmness. The presentation is utterly relaxed yet somehow full of energy. The music comes alive in the room and the musicians are present in front of the listener. What this turntable does better than any other turntable I have heard is remove the sense that there is anything mechanical between the listener and the performance captured on the record. My AS2000 does this very well, but The Absolute Nothing takes it further by a margin I did not think was possible.

There is nothing in the presentation that is emphasized, just the ease of the performers in the room. My simple take is that the bass primarily, but also the rest of the information on the record is not corrupted or obscured by the mechanical nature of other turntables. There is more information that comes through to the cartridge and tonearm. When the arm and cartridge are at the level of the 3012R and the Neumann, it seems as if all of the music captured in the vinyl comes through, at least more than I have heard from any other table. There is just more of everything presented naturally. Nothing seems missing because there is just so much more music flowing forth.

I listened until 5:30 in the morning and left for Boston a couple of hours later driving for hours to hear a chamber concert of harp, flute, and strings later that night. Having heard the new turntable in an all Lamm Signature and Karma Midi Grand Exquisite system, followed so closely by a live chamber concert, it is clear to me that David has narrowed the gap between the live and reproduced pretty dramatically.

"Nothing between the listener and the recording" - David's description gets to the essence of this new turntable. It is also what is behind his approach to system set up. David Karmeli has achieved something truly remarkable here, and I could see his satisfaction as he listened. The pride of a designer working hard and then achieving success. I feel fortunate to have witnessed it and heard it as he did for that first time.
...

David is to be commended on his fabulous herculean 1300+ lbs. design that he clearly took to an extreme level. Seems obvious to me that David understands the concept that achieving extreme results can only occur from extreme efforts – never by token or half-assed efforts.

However, even though the idea (and claim) to design a TT that neither adds nor removes ANYTHING from the recording is a bit unrealistic and actually rather naïve as such a claim would imply David designed a supposedly perfect TT.

Yet, here we have a sound that clearly falls short of the mark. For example. In all 3 videos posted David’s playback presentation seems fairly loaded down with that rather unpleasant and all too common hollowed empty-coffee-can-like sonic signature. Though this rather unpleasant sonic signature is clearly present in all 3 videos petera posted, it’s perhaps most obvious with female vocals.

IOW, it seems clear that unnatural sound is added to the playback presentation such that natural sound must be suppressed / removed. Are these not clear indicators that David’s design fell short of his mission and/or claims?

According to petera David said of his design, "Nothing between the listener and the recording". Seriously?
 
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Agree. A great topic. I was talking to Myles Astor today about this very thing. The audio industry has as much interest in doing work like this as much as the pharma industry is interested in doing a study to see if salt intake can be effective for postural hypotension due low blood pressure.( Hint- you can't patent salt!) It would be wonderful to put a modern piece of electronics up against some of the giants of yesteryear in a meaningful comparative manner. If this is going to be done, it will likely only be done by an audio club or hobbyist with genuine interest.
I just did something along these lines. This afternoon at a local dealer I heard a demo of ARC’s new Reference 330M amps on Wilson Chronosonic XVX. Tonight at home I am playing most of the same selections on my mostly vintage system. Jensen/Western Electric woofers from 1947 in open baffle, Western Electric horns (1940s) with YL drivers (1960s), EV T350 tweeters (1970s). DIY clones of Western Electric 124 amps (1947 design).

Overall I prefer my home system. Yes, the ARC/Wilsons play louder, have deeper bass, and even have more detail, but my vintage gear sounds more like real music IMO. Even the bass sounds more like real bass instruments. The vintage gear also happens to be more fun to listen to IMO. I fully recognize other people could hear the same systems and prefer the modern gear. It all depends on priorities.
 

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