American Sound, "The Absolute Nothing"

[PeterA]

But that logic Mike, Marty, and Ron also made compares.

Tang made his choice between AF1p, Kronos, EMT 927 and AS2000 when he was not into recordings or classical. He would had the same outcome among those with good classical that he grew into later, does not mean a lower priced table with Dava and vyger RS would not have been as good or better.

What you are doing is no different from someone defending WAMM or M9. You choose your jewellery, to me a setting up a system for real sound, natural sound, and absolute sound can be done at lower prices as long as it is done right, rest is the person’s OCD.

I got in this discussion because the statement of yours that I replied to seemed to try and create a price bracket for status. This is no different to when other industry proponents list out 300k plus speakers at the Uber ones (to which you object, as do I)

I mentioned nothing about price. I mentioned flagship status which in theory represents the best efforts of a given designer. That could be Micro Seiki or Garrard too. I agree you can put together a very natural sounding system for not much money if you know what you’re doing and have good recordings. The Esoteric drive type is quite interesting and Mike raves about his turntable. The Nagra is new and there was then a lot of discussion about it. I do not know what those cost. Note I did not mention all expensive turntables.

You are the one who is trying to introduce price for status, not me. I can not speak for other American Sound owners and can not say if they bought it for status. I made my decision based on sound quality and those who bought the turntable before hearing it likely based the decision on David Karmeli‘s reputation or they heard or read about the legendary AS 1000.

 

[bonzo75]

I mentioned nothing about price. I mentioned flagship status which in theory represents the best efforts of a given designer. That could be Micro Seiki or Garrard too. I agree you can put together a very natural sounding system for not much money if you know what you’re doing and have good recordings. The Esoteric drive type is quite interesting and Mike raves about his turntable. The Nagra is new and there was then a lot of discussion about it. I do not know what those cost. Note I did not mention all expensive turntables.

You are the one who is trying to introduce price for status, not me. I can not speak for other American Sound owners and can not say if they bought it for status. I made my decision based on sound quality and those who bought the turntable before hearing it likely based the decision on David Karmeli‘s reputation or they heard or read about the legendary AS 1000.

Nagra, Techdas AF0, Esoteric, AS 30000, is the club you had stated to which commen I replied.

That is not the same as Micro Seiki, Garrard, As 3000.

The AS 1000 is not necessarily legendary, I have not heard of it from anyone outside David's circle. Someone I know bought an AS 1000 with a micro seiki 2200 from Japan and I know the price he bought it for.

MS 5000 is good value at 10ish k, as are Garrard, 124, Lenco, EMT 930, Commonwealth. These are legendary vintage tables for good value, EMT 927 is legendary vintage table with value that appreciates as an investment. MS 8000 now is overpriced as a collectible item. There are many modern tables well-serviced in the used market below that price.

 

[PeterA]

Nagra, Techdas AF0, Esoteric, AS 30000, is the club you had stated to which commen I replied.

That is not the same as Micro Seiki, Garrard, As 3000.

The AS 1000 is not necessarily legendary, I have not heard of it from anyone outside David's circle. Someone I know bought an AS 1000 with a micro seiki 2200 from Japan and I know the price he bought it for.

MS 5000 is good value at 10ish k, as are Garrard, 124, Lenco, EMT 930, Commonwealth. These are legendary vintage tables for good value, EMT 927 is legendary vintage table with value that appreciates as an investment. MS 8000 now is overpriced as a collectible item. There are many modern tables well-serviced in the used market below that price.

You are now twisting or doing yoga. You asked me if I based my comment on price. I replied that I did not and I gave my reasons. You are arguing for no reason. Let it go. Your pricing information on these turntables is also wrong. You are putting wrong information on this thread for some reason.

I do not know what the AS 3000 is. You made that name up in your imagination. That is not the name of David's new turntable. It is called The Absolute Nothing.

I have discussed the importance of the recordings with David. He told me that the turntable has to bring out the quality of the recording when it is there and with minimal editing. The better the turntable, the more of the recording one will hear, and the more natural will be the presentation. One can pursue that as far as he wants to go. It starts with the recording, but the turntable let's you experience what is there. There are many levels.

 

[bonzo75]

You are now twisting or doing yoga. You asked me if I based my comment on price. I replied that I did not and I gave my reasons

Nagra, Techdas AF0, Esoteric, AS 30000 what is this based on, since you haven't heard the other 3.

Apologies for calling Absolute Nothing AS 3000, changes absolutely nothing in my argument.

 

[PeterA]

Nagra, Techdas AF0, Esoteric, AS 30000 what is this based on, since you haven't heard the other 3.

Apologies for calling Absolute Nothing AS 3000, changes absolutely nothing in my argument.

You can re-read post number 210 in which I explain the basis of my comment. It has to do with flagship efforts that represent the best a designer is capable of coming up with. His ultimate achievement. That describes the AF zero and the Nagra and the Esoteric. It is also based on rave reports from people who have heard these turntables and or lived with them.

The Absolute Nothing turntable sets a very high bar based on my experience having heard it, comparing it to the AS 1000 and living with the SX 8000 II and the AS 2000.

Anyway, you can disagree with my opinion that people should hear these turntables before deciding which one to get, but I don’t understand why you are arguing about that opinion. I would also be very curious how the Nagra, Esoteric, and AF zero compare to the Micro and Garrard, even the new VYGER and SME. I put these in a group because they represent best efforts. In my opinion, the Absolute Nothing should be compared to other best efforts, regardless of price, new and vintage. This is about absolute best, not opinion of value based on price to performance.

 

[tima]

This sounds like much ado about nothing as you have no dog in this fight other than a list of products that you like. People make their choices. No reason to get tilted if they don't make your choices.

What you are doing is no different from someone defending WAMM or M9. You choose your jewellery, to me a setting up a system for real sound, natural sound, and absolute sound can be done at lower prices as long as it is done right, rest is the person’s OCD.

I thought Peter was describing what is the case, not defending other people's choices.

I got in this discussion because the statement of yours that I replied to seemed to try and create a price bracket for status. This is no different to when other industry proponents list out 300k plus speakers as the Uber ones (to which you object, as do I)

Where did status come in? If someone is willing to spend a certain amount of dollars on a turntable, it seems reasonable to compare TTs in that price range. That has little to do with what is the best value outside of that price range.

The AS 1000 is not necessarily legendary, I have not heard of it from anyone outside David's circle.

In my mind this is not the criteria for something to be legendary. There are very very few AS 1000 and perhaps very very few opinions about it.

 

[PeterA]

The AS 1000 is not necessarily legendary, I have not heard of it from anyone outside David's circle. Someone I know bought an AS 1000 with a micro seiki 2200 from Japan and I know the price he bought it for.

So the chap you know has one and he is in David’s circle. That makes four known AS1000s. David owned three of them and I have seen all three in different systems. This is an extremely rare turntable and David introduced it to WBF through his wonderful series of essays. It would have otherwise remained pretty much unknown.

I say it is legendary because of its reputation and rarity. I think Vladimir Lamm told David about it having seen it in an advertisement in a Japanese magazine. David was able to track it down. It was commissioned by a Japanese dealership in the 70s and there were many attempts to copy it in Asia. You can find images of some of these attempts on the Internet. Apparently none, match its sound quality.

I have seen images of one version slightly bigger than a Micro SX8000 with a smaller base and platter than the AS1000. So you have images of you friend’s sample?

 

[bonzo75]

So the chap you know has one and he is in David’s circle.

No he is the only one I know outside. you know him too

 

[bonzo75]

Where did status come in? If someone is willing to spend a certain amount of dollars on a turntable, it seems reasonable to compare TTs in that price range. That has little to do with what is the best value outside of that price range.

I am quite consistent in my thoughts of how much price is correlated to sonic value. It seems the criteria for some people is that things are overpriced unless it’s a turntable they own/back, then the price reflects the sonic value

 

[bonzo75]

In my mind this is not the criteria for something to be legendary. There are very very few AS 1000 and perhaps very very few opinions about it.

Peter used the word legendary to which I replied. Legends have a history and are talked about. Like Batman

 

[bonzo75]

It was commissioned by a Japanese dealership in the 70s and there were many attempts to copy it in Asia. You can find images of some of these attempts on the Internet. Apparently none, match its sound quality.

Please post a link to these images or old previous discussions on this from other sources in the west or the east

 

[tima]

I am quite consistent in my thoughts of how much price is correlated to sonic value. It seems the criteria for some people is that things are overpriced unless it’s a turntable they own/back, then the price reflects the sonic value

Maybe, I don't know.

You made a topic switch from status. Status is in the eye of the beholders who think in terms of status. People spend in different ranges of cost. I will not buy what I cannot afford and I don't think I buy for status but for sonics within my affordability. My system today is less than what some pay for a single component -- and I am happy with it.

 

[bonzo75]

Maybe, I don't know.

You made a topic switch from status. Status is in the eye of the beholders who think in terms of status. People spend in different ranges of cost. I will not buy what I cannot afford and I don't think I buy for status but for sonics within my affordability. My system today is less than what some pay for a single component -- and I am happy with it.

I made a topic about a club (Nagra, AF0, Esoteric, Absolute nothing). The fact that you want to make it about the eye of the beholder about status blah blah is just trying to reposition the attempt to club these things as the ultimate elite.

 

[PeterA]

I am quite consistent in my thoughts of how much price is correlated to sonic value. It seems the criteria for some people is that things are overpriced unless it’s a turntable they own/back, then the price reflects the sonic value

I don’t understand this comment. The discussion is not about value, but in terms of performance in relative terms. The turntables we are describing are extremely expensive and I would not describe them as high value. I’m not aware that I ever suggested anything like that.

I’ve directly compared the various steps in my own system and every time you pay more you get more with the Micros and American sound turntables. Value depends on the individual making the judgment.

If you’ve got great recordings, the better the turntable, the more you will get in return.

I’ve never heard the esoteric or the Nagra or the VYG ER or new SME, so I have no opinion about their performance levels, but they do represent best efforts from their designers based on what I have read.

 

[PeterA]

I made a topic about a club (Nagra, AF0, Esoteric, Absolute nothing). The fact that you want to make it about the eye of the beholder about status blah blah is just trying to reposition the attempt to club these things as the ultimate elite.

Bonzo, I described a group of turntables, making the criteria about best efforts from their designers. I referred to them as flagships. You did not get that and you made it about status and price. I added the Garrard and Micros to my group to emphasize my point.

The discussion is stale. Let’s move on. I do appreciate your interest in this thread.

 

[bonzo75]

I don’t understand this comment. The discussion is not about value, but in terms of performance in relative terms. The turntables we are describing are extremely expensive and I would not describe them as high value. I’m not aware that I ever suggested anything like that.

I am not talking only of value in price relative terms, but above a certain level you don’t get any sonic value more, apart from jewelry status. People might want to hope that spending 100k 200k on a TT and 300k to 1 million on a speaker is going to get the orchestra in a the room and a led zep reunion from 70s, it is not going to happen. Not only because of law of diminishing returns, there are no returns beyond a system set up point. The rest is pure OCD

 

[dcathro]

This discussion reminds me of Monty Python. Obviously you guys paid for the full half hour.

 

[PeterA]

This discussion reminds me of Monty Python. Obviously you guys paid for the full half hour.

Funny. It’s what happens when two people are having a discussion, but only one of them has experienced the thing they are talking about.

 

[Salectric]

Funny. It’s what happens when two people are having a discussion, but only one of them has experienced the thing they are talking about.

And the other just wants to stir the pot.

 

[bonzo75]

Funny. It’s what happens when two people are having a discussion, but only one of them has experienced the thing they are talking about.

No it happens when one wants to say only one this is the ultimate (apologies, the club includes three other tables which haven’t been experienced by you) and requires 100k to 400k to get spent on it.