Best way of recording vinyl to pc

[Mike Lavigne]

the best files i have heard from tape is from these guys. might be the best digital i have. and i have plenty of native DXD and 4xdsd files. vinyl rips are not in the same realm at all.

About Us

High Definition Tape Transfers is the brainchild of an avid 2 & 4 track open-reel collector and a serious audiophile. Collected over the years, many of our tapes contain forgotten performances of historical importance. Our mission is to preserve and share these rare gems with other music lovers...

www.highdeftapetransfers.ca

 

[hopkins]

Thanks, @hopkins, for sharing that video. From what I can see, the signal chain in the video is as follows:

- Mytek 8x192 AD/DA (connected to computer via usb cable)
- Merging Technologies Pyramix software (audio editor and mastering suite)
- Steinberg WaveLab software (audio editor and mastering suite)
- Cube-Tec denoise plug-in (opened inside of Pyramix or WaveLab)

In my opinion, this workflow is focused on tape transfer and is not the same as transferring vinyl, at least in terms of processes and software. Additionally, she significantly degrades the tape’s quality. All she needs to do is use the best heads and head amplifier for the Studer and connect it directly to the highest-quality AD converter or digital recorder available. Instead, she routes everything through a patch bay and uses TRS converters on each XLR plug.

In my opinion, the best mastering engineer for transferring and restoring vinyl is Michael Graves at Osiris Mastering Studio

That said, even he is not particularly skilled at cleaning or caring for vinyl or using high-end playback equipment -at least he wasn't when I last checked his videos and workflow. The main issue with most professionals in this field is that they lack knowledge of vinyl playback and high-end audio. They operate under the illusion that everything can be fixed in post-processing. Of course, there are audiophile mastering engineers like Bernie Grundman, Bob Ludwig, and Kevin Gray, but they specialize in mastering rather than vinyl restoration.

Thanks for that list and your comments. This was 4 years ago and is not the producer of the mosaic records. What I appreciate with Mosaic Records is that they do the right amount of cleaning up - not too much, which kills the sound - not too little (as the source quality is often poor). I would be curious to know what they use as well.

 

[hopkins]

the best files i have heard from tape is from these guys. might be the best digital i have. and i have plenty of native DXD and 4xdsd files. vinyl rips are not in the same realm at all.

About Us

High Definition Tape Transfers is the brainchild of an avid 2 & 4 track open-reel collector and a serious audiophile. Collected over the years, many of our tapes contain forgotten performances of historical importance. Our mission is to preserve and share these rare gems with other music lovers...

www.highdeftapetransfers.ca

I have a few (Duke Ellington - Cosmic Scene and Back to Back for example) but PCM. They do sound good. Back to Back sounds better on vinyl in mono, IMO, but that's another story and probably more a matter of preference.

 

[mtemur]

Here is a song from an old, noisy record. The recording quality is not great either. If you want to test your software’s ability to clean a record digitally, this is a good example because it contains wooden spoons and sharp transients. Wooden spoons are similar to castanets—both can trigger a de-click software’s threshold, causing the software to attempt to remove them. This makes for a very challenging test.

Cecen Kizi - Nathan Davis, Akgunduz Kutbay, Emin Findikoglu (raw capture)

And here is the version I cleaned for comparison. The more time you spend the better it gets.

Cecen Kizi - Nathan Davis, Akgunduz Kutbay, Emin Findikoglu (cleaned)

 

[mtemur]

Dear @rDin which AD filter are using with ADI-2 Pro and why? Thanks in advance.

 

[Rexp]

Dreams by Fleetwood Mac often comes off as a bit digital when ripped but this one, recorded with a Focusrite 4i4 sounds like the record:

 

[audiobomber]

I ripped 400+ LPs. I had great results, using a Korg DS-DAC-10R and VinylStudio. My audiophile friends agree. Some rips exceed what is available digitally, including Qobuz and purchased high-resolution files, some don't. I suspect different masterings.

It took a year, because of course everything is done in real time, with extra time needed for track separation and click removal. I chose 24/88.2 zero compression FLAC to conserve storage space. I have never heard any difference between zero-compression FLAC and .wav files, and I have tested many.

I decided against recording at 24/192, because I couldn't see any technical advantage. 24/88.2 has a bandwidth to 44.1kHz, and a dynamic range of 144dB, therefore should be able to capture anything on an LP.. I was concerned about storage space because I also have tens of thousands of storage-hungry photos.

I decided against DSD because of the superior metadata capabilities afforded by FLAC. In DSD, I would not have been able to remove clicks and pops, separate tracks and tag the results. To do these things, I would need to convert to PCM for processing, so what would be the point of DSD? VinylStudio click and pop reduction is an awesome feature for cleaning up a noisy record.

"Inside the DS-DAC-10R, you’ll find the same PCM4202 (made by TI) AD converter used in the MR-2000S 1-bit studio recorder. We have insisted on the same exacting quality as this recorder—which continues to be used in many professional studios."
https://www.korg.com/caen/products/audio/ds_dac_10r/

For even better performance, you could power it using an external linear power supply and a dual head USB cable, like this:
https://www.ghentaudio.com/products/u21?VariantsId=12982

 

[CJmooney]

I've also used Vinyl Studio and the results are outstanding. I use 24/192 because HD storage is cheap. I rip to AIFF. I use a Devialet 250 Expert digital out, to a Weiss D to A converter, into a MacBook Pro. I agree it's very time consuming. I don't do whole albums generally, just favorite cuts.

 

[rDin]

Why did you move from iZotope to VinylStudio? Apparently VinylStudio is cheaper but also very primitive in my opinion.

Sorry, I missed this. Well, post iZotope I would import into VinylStudio to split tracks etc, but I stuck with iZotope for years because of the click removal and spectral work you could do. Then I started experimenting with higher sample rates and found that iZotope crashes *a lot* with 768/24, whereas VinylStudio is quite happy. So then I started looking at VinylStudios click removal etc and found that it did as good a job as iZotope 99% of the time. Sure, iZotope's presentation is much more polished on this front, but VinylStudio, once you get used to it, does work very well and I haven't looked back...

VinylStudio has a lot of functionality when you dig below the surface. Highly recommended.

 

[rDin]

Some of the vinyl records I’ve cleaned (digitally restored) actually sound better than their streamed counterparts, even when the streaming version has been transferred from the master tape.

Yes, I hear this all the time, particularly when MY sample rates go higher (192 and above).

 

[rDin]

I don’t think limiting AD conversion to 192/24 is a weakness. In fact, I don’t believe higher sample rates offer significant improvements over 96/24.

When I was using the Sugarcube, I found I could hear the tiniest big of degradation between it's analog bypass and digital through. A loss of the slightest bit of air. Very small. That convinced me that 192/24 was *almost* transparent to the vinyl, almost good enough, but not quite there. Although it could have been a degradation caused by something else in the digital through, rather than simply the sampling rate.

 

[mtemur]

When I was using the Sugarcube, I found I could hear the tiniest big of degradation between it's analog bypass and digital through. A loss of the slightest bit of air. Very small. That convinced me that 192/24 was *almost* transparent to the vinyl, almost good enough, but not quite there. Although it could have been a degradation caused by something else in the digital through, rather than simply the sampling rate.

In my original post, I didn’t mean that 192/24 is transparent enough to vinyl. On the contrary, none of the sampling rates are truly transparent — not DSD, not PCM, not even 1536/32. Absolutely not.

What I meant is that — aside from the fact that a digital copy is never close to the original analog — in my opinion, any sampling rate above 96/24 doesn’t offer a significant improvement.

 

[rDin]

What I meant is that — aside from the fact that a digital copy is never close to the original analog — in my opinion, any sampling rate above 96/24 doesn’t offer a significant improvement.

I agree with the first part, but strongly disagree with the second. I hear significant improvements as the sample rate rises, by which I mean the digital rip sounds ever closer to the native vinyl in my system the higher the sampling rate goes. I've done tests where I rip and 768/24 and then downsample (so there is only one "read" of the record) to the various sample rates and tested. And I've done multiple rips of the same record at various rates all the way up to 768/24 (accepting there may be variation between plays) and I hear the same thing both times - the higher the sample rate the closer it sounds to native vinyl.

 

[mtemur]

I agree with the first part, but strongly disagree with the second. I hear significant improvements as the sample rate rises, by which I mean the digital rip sounds ever closer to the native vinyl in my system the higher the sampling rate goes. I've done tests where I rip and 768/24 and then downsample (so there is only one "read" of the record) to the various sample rates and tested. And I've done multiple rips of the same record at various rates all the way up to 768/24 (accepting there may be variation between plays) and I hear the same thing both times - the higher the sample rate the closer it sounds to native vinyl.

OK, I’m sure you’re aware of this, but I’d like to remind you that the RME ADI-2 Pro has some DSP limitations. When using 768 kHz / 24-bit recording and/or playback, these limitations disable certain functions such as AD/DA filters. It’s best to perform this test using the SD Sharp filter for both recording and playback, with all DSP features—such as EQ, bass, treble, loudness, etc.—disabled. Otherwise, enabling or disabling DSP functions while using the 768 kHz / 24-bit sample rate might alter the sound.

 

[audiobomber]

I used VinylStudio and a Korg DS-DAC-10R for my LP rips. I could hear no difference between 24/88.2 and 24/192, and the technical specs say that 24/88.2, with 44.1kHz bandwidth and 144dB of dynamic range, should capture everything on vinyl.

What the above does not account for is in the replay chain, i.e. the resolution of your audio system, and how your DAC filter manages low vs. high sample rates.

 

[rDin]

One of the reasons to use high res is that filtering becomes a non-issue? The roll off of the filter is way up in the ultrasonic frequencies far away from the audible band. I’m doing pure A to D so other DSP is not needed.

 

[audiobomber]

One of the reasons to use high res is that filtering because a non-issue? The roll off of the filter is way up in the ultrasonic frequencies far away from the audible band. I’m doing pure A to D so other DSP is not needed.

Which begs the question; if you record at 24/96 and upsample via Audirvana or HQPlayer, would you end up with the same sound quality?

 

[audiobomber]

I would like to mention that my poor LPs ended up sounding better after ripping than the LP due to click and pop removal in VinylStudio.

 

[rDin]

Which begs the question; if you record at 24/96 and upsample via Audirvana or HQPlayer, would you end up with the same sound quality?

You would not. One of the problems with digital is reconstruction. It’s not perfect. This is why I feel higher resolutions actually sound better - there is less error in the final reconstruction. HQplayer and eg Chord MScaler do a great job but cannot match native sampling.

 

[rDin]

I would like to mention that my poor LPs ended up sounding better after ripping than the LP due to click and pop removal in VinylStudio.

The SugarCube is a game changer in that regard. Live replay, click free.