American Sound, "The Absolute Nothing"

[Lagonda]

How does any of that utter diatribe connect with your earlier “ Wait till we get started on Aries Cerat ! “ ?

That was actually just a joke in response to your silly diatribe when i posted a "laugh " emoji to one of you usual attacks on Davids turntables. He must have sold you a bad product in a previous life, or gotten you kicked of the forum under another name You are utterly obsessed with someone that left the forum years ago

 

[Argonaut]

That was actually just a joke in response to your silly diatribe when i posted a "laugh " emoji to one of you usual attacks on Davids turntables. He must have sold you a bad product in a previous life, or gotten you kicked of the forum under another name You are utterly obsessed with someone that left the forum years ago View attachment 138239

If you actually bother to read my question , actually directed toward another member , before your Pavlov dog response , you might just possibly discern a reasonable enquiry ! What … and these are your words “ bad product” do you think that I may have previously bought from Karmeli’s wares ? Which other account do you suspect that your *All Powerful Master* had me “gotten you kicked of the forum” ? If you klick on my forum account you will see that it was first registered July 30 , 2013 … You are certainly No Sherlock Holmes are you ;0}

 

[Lagonda]

If you actually bother to read my question directed toward another member , before your Pavlov dog response , you might just possibly discern a reasonable enquiry !

I read it and concluded you were up to your usual silliness, like when you attack Peter every chance you get, because he is a friend of David. You are obsessed !

 

[asb]

... It is the same Pabst motor as in the AS2000 ...

The name of the manufacturer is Papst. Do you know which particular motor this is ? Thanks

 

[PeterA]

The name of the manufacturer is Papst. Do you know which particular motor this is ? Thanks

Thank you for the correction. I do not know the specific motor model. David Karmeli supplied the motors to TechDAS for their Air Force Zero turntables.

 

[Lagonda]

The name of the manufacturer is Papst. Do you know which particular motor this is ? Thanks

Search the forum, we have talked about this before. David even posted a photo of the motor, i have no clue about where anymore, maybe a thread about motor controllers ?

 

[PeterA]

The new and better motor of the AS 2000( same one used by AF0) contributes to a significant portion of the price delta

Hello Mari555,

This and the motor controller plus the manufacturing costs to produce the AS2000 fifty years later. As far as I know, there is one AS1000 owned by someone other than David Karmeli. I have heard it and helped to set it up for the new owner. These tables are exceedingly rare.

I agree with you that the AS2000 is not a clone of the AS1000 as someone else guessed. There are improvements throughout the design including in the base and platter. I have directly compared them in my system after setting them up. These improvements are significant and clearly audible. And the Absolute Nothing takes it much further.

 

[asb]

Search the forum, we have talked about this before. David even posted a photo of the motor, i have no clue about where anymore, maybe a thread about motor controllers ?

Had a hard time searching for this but found the picture of a motor you use :

What turntables do you use? Pictures would be nice as well :-)

Ok, but I did the upgrade to a Transrotor turntable which has a Papst motor similar to the one in the picture you shared. Actually when I checked the picture you shared on above post I can clearly see that it is a 2 phase motor from the writings over it. It is manufactured in April 1977 and if...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[PeterA]

Here is a link to when these discussions were informative, funny, and friendly. Let’s make WBF great again. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...00-installations-far-east-tango.26052/page-48

 

[PeterA]

I just listened to these two videos. The first is the official Shelly Manne "official Youtube" version of the recording. The second is David's recording in the room of the prototype The Absolute Nothing turntable playing the same stereo version of the song. I helped David set up this turntable and adjust the room acoustics. He must have made this recording after I went to sleep around 5:00AM. Both recordings capture the whole 19 minute song, so you can adjust the volume and toggle back and forth between the two.

I actually like the in room iPhone video more. To me, after he moves away from the turntable and toward the listening position, it sounds more like an actual live recording of a jazz band playing in club setting. You get the colorations of the room acoustics, but the music flows and is more alive, less flat, less sterile. There is a rawness and energy to the in room recording that just sounds more natural and real to me. I can see how others would prefer the YouTube digital recording for its cleanness, but to me it lacks some of that emotional connection to the music. I am left unengaged in the flow of that tune. The system video sounds more like I am there in front of the band in a club setting. David continued to work on the room acoustics and improve the overall set up after I left, but did not make further recordings. It is a very interesting comparison, IMO.

Let's keep the discussion civil. We are all in this hobby to learn and to enjoy the music.

 

[Lagonda]

Had a hard time searching for this but found the picture of a motor you use :

What turntables do you use? Pictures would be nice as well :-)

Ok, but I did the upgrade to a Transrotor turntable which has a Papst motor similar to the one in the picture you shared. Actually when I checked the picture you shared on above post I can clearly see that it is a 2 phase motor from the writings over it. It is manufactured in April 1977 and if...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Found it ! https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/the-necessity-for-absolute-tt-speed-control.30867/page-6

 

[Scott Naylor]

I just listened to these two videos. The first is the official Shelly Manne "official Youtube" version of the recording. The second is David's recording in the room of the prototype The Absolute Nothing turntable playing the same stereo version of the song. I helped David set up this turntable and adjust the room acoustics. He must have made this recording after I went to sleep around 5:00AM. Both recordings capture the whole 19 minute song, so you can adjust the volume and toggle back and forth between the two.

I actually like the in room iPhone video more. To me, after he moves away from the turntable and toward the listening position, it sounds more like an actual live recording of a jazz band playing in club setting. You get the colorations of the room acoustics, but the music flows and is more alive, less flat, less sterile. There is a rawness and energy to the in room recording that just sounds more natural and real to me. I can see how others would prefer the YouTube digital recording for its cleanness, but to me it lacks some of that emotional connection to the music. I am left unengaged in the flow of that tune. The system video sounds more like I am there in front of the band in a club setting. David continued to work on the room acoustics and improve the overall set up after I left, but did not make further recordings. It is a very interesting comparison, IMO.

Let's keep the discussion civil. We are all in this hobby to learn and to enjoy the music.

Petera, my preference for the YouTube has nothing to do with “cleanness”, it’s that I can hear how the ensemble is working together, in comparison. The turntable presentation is so busy making things sound “natural and real” it’s smoothing over the rhythmic subtlety of how Manne is supporting his Men. Listen and compare that little marching figure he plays before the four minute mark?

While the AN is very different, it reminds me of how the LP-12 gives everything a rhythmic flavor - and why I ultimately gave up on that table in spite of its overall brilliant access to the musical message. Finally, a question for you - does “NATURAL sound” = sounds the way I think it should sound?

Regards

 

[PeterA]

Petera, my preference for the YouTube has nothing to do with “cleanness”, it’s that I can hear how the ensemble is working together, in comparison. The turntable presentation is so busy making things sound “natural and real” it’s smoothing over the rhythmic subtlety of how Manne is supporting his Men. Listen and compare that little marching figure he plays before the four minute mark?

While the AN is very different, it reminds me of how the LP-12 gives everything a rhythmic flavor - and why I ultimately gave up on that table in spite of its overall brilliant access to the musical message. Finally, a question for you - does “NATURAL sound” = sounds the way I think it should sound?

Regards

I close my eyes and just go with the flow of what I hear trying to block out preconceptions. It took me a long time to understand this. The reference is key. I hear the influence of the room in the system video. Despite that, it sounds like live jazz in a club to me. It is not clean and sterile like the official video. The room and system are added to the recording, but less seems stripped out. The music and emotion come through. It also has the weight, the richness, and the tonal color of real instruments in a space. It has presence.

My answer to you: Natural sound is a description of what I hear and remember from listening to live musis performances, jazz in clubs included. It is not how I think it should sound. A stereo system either sounds natural or it does not based on the live music standard. From there, there are different degrees of natural sound.

I know putting up these two videos for comparison and commenting as I did is provocative even controversial, but that’s fine. I understand your point of view and preference.

 

[asb]

Found it ! https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/the-necessity-for-absolute-tt-speed-control.30867/page-6

Thank you ! The big pictures in post 113 ?
I do not see that DDK says this is the oen. It is a model that I did not know.
Looking at the shaft it seems to be intended for some capstan drive.
DIYAudio forum has a thread and data sheet of similar models in post 11 :

Papst Motor Question - Changing Rotational Speed by Changing Frequency

I have a question about the Papst external rotor type motor operating in a Fairchild 412-1. I can get it to work very well at 60 Hz and 110VAC. But the problem arises when I try to increase the turntable speed to 45 rpm by increasing frequency. I've been an avid follower of the threads about...

www.diyaudio.com

 

[Lagonda]

Thank you ! The big pictures in post 113 ?
I do not see that DDK says this is the oen. It is a model that I did not know.
Looking at the shaft it seems to be intended for some capstan drive.
DIYAudio forum has a thread and data sheet of similar models in post 11 :

Papst Motor Question - Changing Rotational Speed by Changing Frequency

I have a question about the Papst external rotor type motor operating in a Fairchild 412-1. I can get it to work very well at 60 Hz and 110VAC. But the problem arises when I try to increase the turntable speed to 45 rpm by increasing frequency. I've been an avid follower of the threads about...

www.diyaudio.com

He does say this is the one, he reposts it for Microstrip on his request. The last motor in the diyaudio thread is a similar 2 speed motor with a smaller capstan diameter.

 

[asb]

Motors like this are hard to find today even in Germany.
This is a limit to series production of a turntable.
The one on the picture was made in 1977.

 

[PeterA]

Motors like this are hard to find today even in Germany.
This is a limit to series production of a turntable.
The one on the picture was made in 1977.

The TechDAS AF0, AS2000, and The Absolute Nothing are all limited production turntables. DDK owns a large stock of these motors.

 

[Lagonda]

Motors like this are hard to find today even in Germany.
This is a limit to series production of a turntable.
The one on the picture was made in 1977.

You are welcome ! Yes almost impossible, that's what makes it fun ! Good luck searching. Here are a few pictures of what TechDas did with the motor, they built a air-bearing around it, it must be good for them to go trough all that trouble.

 

[hb22]

You could get some indication of how low that bearing friction is by hand spinning the platter to 33 RPM and seeing how long it takes to stop.

In my humble opinion, the only thing that matters is how long the last turn takes.

 

[Ron Resnick]

You could get some indication of how low that bearing friction is by hand spinning the platter to 33 RPM and seeing how long it takes to stop.

A platter spinning for a long time after power is removed is an interesting parlor trick. How does this result in better sound quality over a platter that does not spin for as long after power is removed?