Introducing Olympus & Olympus I/O - A new perspective on modern music playback

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For those who just started reading up on Olympus, Olympus I/O, and XDMI, please note that all information in this thread has been summarized in a single PDF document that can be downloaded from the Taiko Website.

https://taikoaudio.com/taiko-2020/taiko-audio-downloads

The document is frequently updated.

Scroll down to the 'XDMI, Olympus Music Server, Olympus I/O' section and click 'XDMI, Olympus, Olympus I/O Product Introduction & FAQ' to download the latest version.

Good morning WBF!​


We are introducing the culmination of close to 4 years of research and development. As a bona fide IT/tech nerd with a passion for music, I have always been intrigued by the potential of leveraging the most modern of technologies in order to create a better music playback experience. This, amongst others, led to the creation of our popular, perhaps even revolutionary, Extreme music server 5 years ago, which we have been steadily improving and updating with new technologies throughout its life cycle. Today I feel we can safely claim it's holding its ground against the onslaught of new server releases from other companies, and we are committed to keep improving it for years to come.

We are introducing a new server model called the Olympus. Hierarchically, it positions itself above the Extreme. It does provide quite a different music experience than the Extreme, or any other server I've heard, for that matter. Conventional audiophile descriptions such as sound staging, dynamics, color palette, etc, fall short to describe this difference. It does not sound digital or analog, I would be inclined to describe it as coming closer to the intended (or unintended) performance of the recording engineer.

Committed to keeping the Extreme as current as possible, we are introducing a second product called the Olympus I/O. This is an external upgrade to the Extreme containing a significant part of the Olympus technology, allowing it to come near, though not entirely at, Olympus performance levels. The Olympus I/O can even be added to the Olympus itself to elevate its performance even further, though not as dramatic an uplift as adding it to the Extreme. Consider it the proverbial "cherry on top".
 
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Understood, but O's circuit board can communicate only in i2s, not "XDMI" right? If so, XDMI is an interface and optimal implementation of i2s? Am I wrong here? I want to be educated.
I find it a little hard to wrap my head around too. But as best I can tell, since most DACs understand i2s, XDMI waits as long as possible before converting its protocol to i2s, gaining the resuling benefits of traveling over wire as something other than i2s. For DACs designed with XDMI in mind, there is no need to handoff to i2s. So, given my limited understanding, it's both an interface and a end to end protocol depending upon the implementation.
 
This is it in a nutshell Ray. Your posts are are speculative and misleading It’s the genius of Emile that created it so it’s all proprietary. Go back and read all of Emile’s posts on XDMI rather than postulate as I find that generates confusion to all

The take away for me is that XDMI is the very reason I bought the Olympus
Understood, I ordered everything in the Taiko Ecosystem, including a new Lampizator (another) HORIZON. Nice to have a clear understanding even when opinions differ. At this juncture I could give a fuck less what everyone else thinks, I'm looking at my investment and a clear understanding...
 
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Emile described XDMI here on WBF many months ago and clearly outlined why USB etc would be a thing in the past. Other than his excellent posts I’m sure the rest is proprietary so why should we speculate as to one’s perception of what XDMI is. To me the take away is what it isn’t and thus why it is so much better than traditional interfaces
 
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I find it a little hard to wrap my head around too. But as best I can tell, since most DACs understand i2s, XDMI waits as long as possible before converting its protocol to i2s, gaining the resuling benefits of traveling over wire as something other than i2s. For DACs designed with XDMI in mind, there is no need to handoff to i2s. So, given my limited understanding, it's both an interface and a end to end protocol depending upon the implementation.

Correct! It’s similar to how USB audio works, the USB receiver converts USB to I2S inside the DAC, resulting in short I2S lines. XDMI replaces the USB driver, USB controller / card, USB cable and USB receiver.
 
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Understood, I ordered everything in the Taiko Ecosystem, including a new Lampizator (another) HORIZON. Nice to have a clear understanding even when opinions differ. At this juncture I could give a fuck less what everyone else thinks, I'm looking at my investment and a clear understanding...
John

Based on everything I’ve read here I truly believe that for me the Olympus with XDMI will be end game in the digital side of my system. To that end I have a $15K USB cable for sale o_O
 
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John

Based on everything I’ve read here I truly believe that for me the Olympus with XDMI will be end game in the digital side of my system. To that end I have a $15K USB cable for sale o_O

Steve.
I am sure the Olympus is just beginning.
No one can stop people like Emile to continue development.
It's curiosity that drives us to develop / create new things.
Once you create one thing you start thinking the same day how you can make it better.
I do similar things in medicine.
There us no cure to that.
 
Steve.
I am sure the Olympus is just beginning.
No one can stop people like Emile to continue development.
It's curiosity that drives us to develop / create new things.
Once you create one thing you start thinking the same day how you can make it better.
I do similar things in medicine.
There us no cure to that
If only I could have had a CMS footer for every time I have heard 'end game' from Steve in the last 6 years :D ;) but maybe this is truly it….
Case made and I agree however I do believe that at some point we all have to give it up to a higher power, accept the treasures we have and sit down and enjoy the music. I also believe that Emile's incredible mind will indeed bring further updates and upgrades for consideration . I know that I am loving my Extreme with the full Taiko accessories pugged in. XDMS-NSM has been a revelation for me. So as we all await delivery of our Olympus and IO I believe the first audition will be nothing short of an epiphany. I am also of the feeling that the analogue card will be so good than many of us will forgo the use of an external DAC . We all have to answer that question about when there are no more itches to scratch but as Michael Corleone said in Godfather 3.......
 
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Most of this has been said here already, but since we have nothing better to do while waiting for the first Olympus batch to ship, here you go:

PCM/DSD
When analog data is converted to digital (zeros and ones), it uses a digital format like PCM or DSD. Think of these as the methods used to digitally represent music. These are the formats for encoding the audio signal itself. That digitized signal can be stored in memory (hard drives, USB drives, SSD drives, RAM, etc.) and can be read by digital processors (i.e., computers). But if you want that signal to get out of the computer, you need a protocol to transmit it from point A to point B.

I2S
This is where I2S comes into play. I2S is the standard protocol for transmitting digital data (think PCM, DSD, etc.) between integrated circuits (chips). DAC chips take I2S and convert it to an analog signal. The DAC chip in the Taiko XDMI analog daughter card, for example, takes I2S. So does the Lampizator DAC. So, yes, I2S is absolutely necessary for both of these cases.
I2S is a synchronous protocol and uses separate signal lines for data, clock, and word select. That works really well for short-distance transfer (i.e., a fraction of an inch) between ICs. But when you need to transfer this over long distances, there are all kinds of issues. More on that later.

S/PDIF
To be able to transfer digital data over longer distances, such as between two components like a CD transport and a DAC, Sony and Philips created their own digital interface in 1983 called S/PDIF (Sony/Philips Digital Interface).
S/PDIF is an asynchronous protocol that includes the clock data inside a continuous stream of data. S/PDIF uses coaxial (RCA) or optical (TOSLINK) cables to transfer data. It is relatively low voltage (0.5 to 1 volt peak-to-peak) and can reliably transfer data up to 10 meters.

AES/EBU
The 10m distance wasn’t enough for the pro-audio industry. The Audio Engineering Society/European Broadcasting Union created a new standard a couple of years later, in 1985. They called it AES/EBU and it was specified to transfer digital data up to 300 meters over a relatively higher voltage (2 to 7 volts peak-to-peak for balanced connections). Similar to S/PDIF, AES/EBU is an asynchronous protocol with clock and data mixed together.

USB
USB is a general-purpose data transfer interface used for various types of data, including digital audio, video, and other types of data. On paper, USB has some advantages over all other protocols mentioned above - it has built-in error checking/correction, it supports higher resolution and more audio channels, it can carry power (i.e., to power up your DAC), it has bi-directional communication which allows some flexibility, and it is available on almost every computer. With all its advantages, wide compatibility, and low cost, it easily became the most common interface to carry digital audio.

Other
There are many other digital audio transmission protocols designed for various reasons, such as HDMI, Bluetooth, Ethernet-based protocols such as Dante and AVB, MADI, AES67, and many more. Each of these satisfies different design goals and comes with its own pros and cons. But they are not super popular in high-end audio.

So, how does digital data transfer look end to end? You have a streamer that plays a digital file, say PCM for example. That PCM data gets transferred via one of the interfaces mentioned (S/PDIF, AES/EBU, or USB) between your server/streamer and DAC. Then the DAC converts it to I2S, which is then converted to an analog signal. And yes, those conversions penalize the sound quality.

I won’t go into the limitations and problems of each of these protocols, but it’s worth mentioning that S/PDIF and AES/EBU were created in the early '80s and USB took over because it did not have the limitations of the other ancient protocols.

But what about I2S? Why don’t we use I2S? We can, but I2S is designed for very short distances between ICs on a PCB board. You can transfer plain I2S between your digital source (CD player, streamer, server, etc.) and DAC, but the sound quality deteriorates. There are a lot of issues associated with that - signal degradation over longer distances being one of them (skew, jitter, EMI, crosstalk, etc.).

There are some practical ways to implement I2S over longer distance, though. One of them is converting the I2S to LVDS (Low-Voltage Differential Signaling). But as it was mentioned above (re: PS Audio’s I2S implementation not sounding that good) we are using I2S to avoid any conversions but then we end up converting I2S to LVDS to avoid long distance problems - what’s the point, then… So, really I2S is not suitable here.

I am going to sneak in a couple of comments from Emile here as well:
I don't think it's a particularly good approach to generate an I2S signal, consisting of data, word clock and a bit clock line, and transfer all of that over long sensitive copper interconnects with a multitude of impedance mismatches along the way and a general strong sensitivity to transmission line quality.
It's worth noting that some types of jitter are perceived as improving sound quality. Which certainly adds a twist to any technical superiority discussions. This can enable technically inferior solutions to be touted as sounding better.

For the record, a few years ago I was super convinced that I2S was the best sounding protocol between a server and a DAC. I’ve tried every possible solution I could find on both ends - the digital source and DAC. It sounded better than USB at the time, but a properly implemented USB solution (on both - the server and the DAC) has surpassed even the best of the I2S I’ve had.

Here is me quoting myself on my very first post on WBF 5 years ago (I was still posting as @vassils back then):
The minimalist in me, makes me think that USB is not the best interface for transferring digital from your computer to your DAC. There are too many conversions, clocking, etc. It can sound really good if done with care, but I like simple. In a way AES/EBU is more simple, but it also has its limitations. Many DACs would end up converting the SPDIF/AES/EBU signal to I2S at the end, so I think a good clean I2S signal out of the computer might be a better option for most DACs. If clean, clocked well, and transmitted cleanly (this is where LVDS helps), I2S signal could be superior to USB and SPDIF. YMMV and it is DAC dependant of course... I really wish server manufacturers and DAC manufacturers get together and create a unified standard and stop using USB in high end audio. Take the signal out of a PCIe slot and convert it to the unified standard that could be reclocked before the DAC or fed directly into the DAC without reclocking. I2S seems to be doing many things right, but it was designed 33 years ago and could use some refresh. I really like the MSB idea - proprietary I2S over fiber. And I really wish to see something like that going out of every music server into the DAC.
I've learned a lot since then...
 
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My previous post got out of control and much longer than expected... sorry about that!

Here is something more interesting. Two quotes from my very first posts on WBF about 5 years ago (posted as @vassils, before I switched to @nenon):
I would really like to see DACs fed by the PCIe slot on the computer, with as little conversion as possible, with external power of course and possibly over fiber optical connection, unless the DAC is super close.
and
What else can they (Taiko) do? Try to pioneer new standards and fight the industry :)?

I really knew what I wanted back then! What I did not know was that it would be available 5 years later and that it would be called XDMI.
So if anyone is wondering why I became a dealer and my business is strictly catering around Taiko, it's because we share the same vision.
 
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To complete the posts above,

XDMI is a new standard to transport digital audio. It's a PCIe card inside the Olympus (or extended to the I/O via Taiko's proprietary connection), which means it has direct super fast access to the CPU. That also means it can take the digital signal (i.e., PCM, DSD, etc.) and transfer it much faster than any of the existing audio interfaces. On the first page here, Emile mentions that it's 2000x faster / lower latency than a standard USB interface.

I won't pretend I know any secrets, because I don't. But common sense tells me that what happens next depends on the daughter card used.
- In the case of a XDMI analog output daughter card, the transported digital signal must be converted to I2S that feeds the ROHM DAC chip before it gets converted to an analog signal.
- In the case of a Lampizator digital output, there is some proprietary way of transferring the digital signal to the Lampizator DAC and there it would be converted to I2S.
- In the case of a S/PDIF or AES/EBU digital output daughter card, the digital signal is converted to S/PDIF or AES/EBU which then gets transported to the DAC where it gets converted to I2S. This goes against my philosophy, and my guess is I won't be using this daughter card in my personal system. But as far as I understand it, one of the goals with this daughter card is to get an idea of how bad USB is compared to XDMI (even is there is S/PDIF or AES/EBU after the XDMI).

And all of this is powered by a BPS that most likely elevates things much higher. And knowing Emile, there is probably quite a few other secrets that he is keeping to himself. Can't wait to hear all that in my system.
 
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To complete the posts above,

XDMI is a new standard to transport digital audio. It's a PCIe card inside the Olympus (or extended to the I/O via Taiko's proprietary connection), which means it has direct super fast access to the CPU. That also means it can take the digital signal (i.e., PCM, DSD, etc.) and transfer it much faster than any of the existing audio interfaces. On the first page here, Emile mentions that it's 2000x faster / lower latency than a standard USB interface.

I won't pretend I know any secrets, because I don't. But common sense tells me that what happens next depends on the daughter card used.
- In the case of a XDMI analog output daughter card, the transported digital signal must be converted to I2S that feeds the ROHM DAC chip before it gets converted to an analog signal.
- In the case of a Lampizator digital output, there is some proprietary way of transferring the digital signal to the Lampizator DAC and there it would be converted to I2S.
- In the case of a S/PDIF or AES/EBU digital output daughter card, the digital signal is converted to S/PDIF or AES/EBU which then gets transported to the DAC where it gets converted to I2S. This goes against my philosophy, and my guess is I won't be using this daughter card in my personal system. But as far as I understand it, one of the goals with this daughter card is to get an idea of how bad USB is compared to XDMI (even is there is S/PDIF or AES/EBU after the XDMI).

And all of this is powered by a BPS that most likely elevates things much higher. And knowing Emile, there is probably quite a few other secrets that he is keeping to himself. Can't wait to hear all that in my system.
I call Post(s) Of The Day. . .

Steve Z
 
- In the case of a Lampizator digital output, there is some proprietary way of transferring the digital signal to the Lampizator DAC and there it would be converted to I2S.
The 6 million dollars question is that whether the transferring of digital data to Lampizator involves conversion like SPDIF.
 
To complete the posts above,

XDMI is a new standard to transport digital audio. It's a PCIe card inside the Olympus (or extended to the I/O via Taiko's proprietary connection), which means it has direct super fast access to the CPU. That also means it can take the digital signal (i.e., PCM, DSD, etc.) and transfer it much faster than any of the existing audio interfaces. On the first page here, Emile mentions that it's 2000x faster / lower latency than a standard USB interface.

I won't pretend I know any secrets, because I don't. But common sense tells me that what happens next depends on the daughter card used.
- In the case of a XDMI analog output daughter card, the transported digital signal must be converted to I2S that feeds the ROHM DAC chip before it gets converted to an analog signal.
- In the case of a Lampizator digital output, there is some proprietary way of transferring the digital signal to the Lampizator DAC and there it would be converted to I2S.
- In the case of a S/PDIF or AES/EBU digital output daughter card, the digital signal is converted to S/PDIF or AES/EBU which then gets transported to the DAC where it gets converted to I2S. This goes against my philosophy, and my guess is I won't be using this daughter card in my personal system. But as far as I understand it, one of the goals with this daughter card is to get an idea of how bad USB is compared to XDMI (even is there is S/PDIF or AES/EBU after the XDMI).

And all of this is powered by a BPS that most likely elevates things much higher. And knowing Emile, there is probably quite a few other secrets that he is keeping to himself. Can't wait to hear all that in my system.
thanks for your posts, nenon, they were brilliant absolutely lucid summaries : )
 
Nenon, thanks for your elucidation. But I suspect your experience of i2s has been limited to the PS Audio's implementation (the output format as HDMI or RJ45). That was my experience with Rockna's flagship DAC linked with its flagship server via i2s/LVDS (in HDMI output/input format), which I owned for quite a few years prior. I did not find such i2s link significantly better than the USB link of the two Rockna devices. The Extreme/Horizon USB link is miles ahead of the Rockna pair i2s link (but to be fair, the former is 3x more expensive than the latter). My experience changed when I heard a solo manufacturer's self-made system consisting of a "purist" i2s implementation between his DAC and server (which was duplicated in my modded DVD player by a DIY guy). I informed (with some trepidation of being pilloried) that the lowly DVD transport's link via such proprietary i2s link sounds more natural than the Extreme's USB link. (My reference is always live music; have been to some of the best concert halls and opera houses in Europe and US and used to listen to live chamber music a lot.) Please note the set of 4 i2s ribbon cables I use to connect the DVD transport and the DAC are all 1.0M in length + about 31cm's length of internal i2s wiring from the DVD transport's digital board to the jacks. I heard no degradation of SQ and was mystified by the repeated talk of i2s being limited to 20cm. One crucial factor: the ribbons are ulthin, 200 microinch, with resistor network built optimized for maximum impedance for each of the 4 signal cables following the use of a test box.
 
Nenon, thanks for your elucidation. But I suspect your experience of i2s has been limited to the PS Audio's implementation (the output format as HDMI or RJ45). That was my experience with Rockna's flagship DAC linked with its flagship server via i2s/LVDS (in HDMI output/input format), which I owned for quite a few years prior. I did not find such i2s link significantly better than the USB link of the two Rockna devices. The Extreme/Horizon USB link is miles ahead of the Rockna pair i2s link (but to be fair, the former is 3x more expensive than the latter). My experience changed when I heard a solo manufacturer's self-made system consisting of a "purist" i2s implementation between his DAC and server (which was duplicated in my modded DVD player by a DIY guy). I informed (with some trepidation of being pilloried) that the lowly DVD transport's link via such proprietary i2s link sounds more natural than the Extreme's USB link. (My reference is always live music; have been to some of the best concert halls and opera houses in Europe and US and used to listen to live chamber music a lot.) Please note the set of 4 i2s ribbon cables I use to connect the DVD transport and the DAC are all 1.0M in length + about 31cm's length of internal i2s wiring from the DVD transport's digital board to the jacks. I heard no degradation of SQ and was mystified by the repeated talk of i2s being limited to 20cm. One crucial factor: the ribbons are ulthin, 200 microinch, with resistor network built optimized for maximum impedance for each of the 4 signal cables following the use of a test box.

If you're that interested in this particular topic it might be interesting to read up on why SPDIF / AES/EBU were created in the first place, there are a lot of papers on the problems associated with transporting I2S over a distance. Or perhaps there are some topics on why MSB created their PRO ISL interface as a better way to transport I2S as an implementation directly aimed at audiophiles.

For me it's not a particularly interesting topic to spend time on debating, it's decades old technology, we only use it for backwards compatibility.

I've written a lot about it already in this thread, this search will give you quick access to that:

search.JPG
 
The 6 million dollars question is that whether the transferring of digital data to Lampizator involves conversion like SPDIF.

Lukasz and me came up with a, imho, rather clever solution. We decided to not share any technical details on it beyond it qualifying as what we consider to be a truly native XDMI implementation, not suffering from the usual problems of traditional interfaces.
 

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