Does Tonal Balance Affect Perceived Pace and Perceived Resolution?

Ron Resnick · Jul 10, 2024

Holmz said:
More interesting to me @Ron Resnick is that there is also some correlation with lower harmonic content sounding like it is lower volume, but the SPL measuring high.
And higher harmonic content sounding louder “and richer”.

Maybe some of ^that^ biology feeds into why some people like SET amps, and higher distortion speakers for lower level listening.
It also can make low distortion amps and speakers somewhat of a danger is one likes to turn them up until they sound loud.

Maybe the distortion “appears” to be more “resolving”, but those devices are putting in things that are not true to the recording… However we all know that high fidelity and what people like are not exactly the same thing.
^That^ said, I appreciate low distortion amps and speakers and systems that “sound’ somewhat quiet, when they are not quiet.
But I also pull out the iPhone/iPad NIOSH app if I think that the SPL maybe getting into the danger range.

I have also heard Ralph mention mention “loudness” and distortion being tied at the hip..

Thank you for replying to my post. But I don't understand your post, and it does not sound correct to me. "Higher distortion speakers for lower level listening"?

Low distortion amps and speakers need to be turned up loud?

Systems that sound quiet when they are not quiet?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Holmz · Jul 11, 2024

Ron Resnick said:
Thank you for replying to my post. But I don't understand your post, and it does not sound correct to me. "Higher distortion speakers for lower level listening"?

Low distortion amps and speakers need to be turned up loud?

No ! - it is the opposite.

Ron Resnick said:
Systems that sound quiet when they are not quiet?

yes

Ron Resnick said:
I have no idea what you're talking about.

^Bonus point for honesty^

Well I have faith in @Atmasphere communications skills.

I suppose we can label gear as resolving, revealing, dry, sterile, etc.
Those are subjective descriptions, that do not really make it easy to communicate what is happening.

For engineers that design gear, they may not want zero distortion. And they may not want distortion that is wrong… so they kinda need to know that stuff in ways that are more scientific than prosaic.
There has been a bevy of medical/biology perception studies over the decades as to how people perceive distortion… and that work also helps to explain how and why certain gear sounds good.

Maybe we need a poll as to whether people have heard systems that sound quieter than they are? Or visa-versa.
But as Ralph mentioned it does fit into the theme of “Does Tonal Balance Affect Perceived Pace and Perceived Resolution?”

I do not think in terms of frequency response, other than pink noise.
But we can think of distortion in terms of harmonic components.

Ron Resnick said:
… Or do you mean only a subjective sense or impression of less apparent detail and less resolution because the treble is being de-emphasized or swamped by bass?

If we take ^this^ question, that would not show up in terms of a tilted up response… all amps would be the same with keeping the room and the speaker constant.
But the harmonics are 2x, 3x, Nx, etc higher than the fundamental. So if we have a 400Hz ‘burst’ that will have a wavelength of ~2-1/2 feet.
There is no burst, but we think of it like a “wavelet”.
If the harmonics at say 5x are high, then that gets energy into a 6” wavelength… and that is a whole lot easier to locate in space.
And at 2kHz we are way more sensitive in our hearing than at 400Hz.
So that will sound louder to us.

PeterA · Jul 11, 2024

Holmz said:
No ! - it is the opposite.

yes

^Bonus point for honesty^

Well I have faith in @Atmasphere communications skills.

I suppose we can label gear as resolving, revealing, dry, sterile, etc.
Those are subjective descriptions, that do not really make it easy to communicate what is happening.

For engineers that design gear, they may not want zero distortion. And they may not want distortion that is wrong… so they kinda need to know that stuff in ways that are more scientific than prosaic.
There has been a bevy of medical/biology perception studies over the decades as to how people perceive distortion… and that work also helps to explain how and why certain gear sounds good.

Maybe we need a poll as to whether people have heard systems that sound quieter than they are? Or visa-versa.
But as Ralph mentioned it does fit into the theme of “Does Tonal Balance Affect Perceived Pace and Perceived Resolution?”

I do not think in terms of frequency response, other than pink noise.
But we can think of distortion in terms of harmonic components.

If we take ^this^ question, that would not show up in terms of a tilted up response… all amps would be the same with keeping the room and the speaker constant.
But the harmonics are 2x, 3x, Nx, etc higher than the fundamental. So if we have a 400Hz ‘burst’ that will have a wavelength of ~2-1/2 feet.
There is no burst, but we think of it like a “wavelet”.
If the harmonics at say 5x are high, then that gets energy into a 6” wavelength… and that is a whole lot easier to locate in space.
And at 2kHz we are way more sensitive in our hearing than at 400Hz.
So that will sound louder to us.

Is it the harmonics, or harmonic content, of bass notes that allow us to locate the virtual position of a bass player within a soundstage of a recording being reproduced in our listening rooms?

Atmasphere · Jul 11, 2024

Ron Resnick said:
Thank you, Ralph, for your reply.

Here when you say "less resolution" do you mean actually less resolution in the video analogy sense of fewer pixels per inch? Or do you mean only a subjective sense or impression of less apparent detail and less resolution because the treble is being de-emphasized or swamped by bass?

'Resolution' is usually not a bass thing. Bass can have extension and impact. But if you are hearing resolution of bass notes, its because higher harmonics of that instrument are allowing you to locate where it is and its tonal character. The short answer is 'no' to the first and 'yes' to the second.

Holmz said:
More interesting to me @Ron Resnick is that there is also some correlation with lower harmonic content sounding like it is lower volume, but the SPL measuring high.
And higher harmonic content sounding louder “and richer”.

Maybe some of ^that^ biology feeds into why some people like SET amps, and higher distortion speakers for lower level listening.
It also can make low distortion amps and speakers somewhat of a danger is one likes to turn them up until they sound loud.

Maybe the distortion “appears” to be more “resolving”, but those devices are putting in things that are not true to the recording… However we all know that high fidelity and what people like are not exactly the same thing.
^That^ said, I appreciate low distortion amps and speakers and systems that “sound’ somewhat quiet, when they are not quiet.
But I also pull out the iPhone/iPad NIOSH app if I think that the SPL maybe getting into the danger range.

I have also heard Ralph mention mention “loudness” and distortion being tied at the hip..

You are mostly correct. The ear uses higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure so has to be keenly sensitive to their presence as the ear has a +120dB range. This simple fact (one of the more important ones about hearing) has been mostly ignored by amplifier designers in the last 70 years. The result of that has been very low distortion solid state amps that sound bright and harsh because what distortion that they have is almost all higher orders not masked by the second and third harmonics.

A lot of those solid state amps I just mentioned are indeed highly resolving because distortion is low but because the higher ordered harmonics are audible (not masked) people have come to associate 'high resolution' with unpleasant harshness and brightness. IME when you really are making progress the amp will be smoother and more detailed both at the same time.

PeterA said:
Is it the harmonics, or harmonic content, of bass notes that allow us to locate the virtual position of a bass player within a soundstage of a recording being reproduced in our listening rooms?

Yes- exactly that.

Ron Resnick said:
Low distortion amps and speakers need to be turned up loud?

Systems that sound quiet when they are not quiet?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Ron, its the mark of the best systems that they do not sound loud even when they are. That is because they are not generating the 'loudness cues' that are common with electronics (including loudspeakers) that tend to make things sound loud when they are not. So its very natural to turn the volume up when the system is clean because your ears are getting more natural, more accurate reproduction.

This is another reason why I say SETs don't work because they fly into the face of this. You read all the time about people saying that '7 Watts is enough' or some such and yet their speakers are only in the low or mid 90s for efficiency. A sound pressure level meter winnows this fact out quite easily. If the distortion is high people might be yelling at you to turn it down but if distortion is low (and the system is not generating loudness cues) that might not happen until you're at 100dB. Or this might happen in a smaller room if 85 dB vs 95. Do you see what is happening here?

PeterA · Jul 11, 2024

Atmasphere said:
Ron, its the mark of the best systems that they do not sound loud even when they are. That is because they are not generating the 'loudness cues' that are common with electronics (including loudspeakers) that tend to make things sound loud when they are not. So its very natural to turn the volume up when the system is clean because your ears are getting more natural, more accurate reproduction.

This is another reason why I say SETs don't work because they fly into the face of this. You read all the time about people saying that '7 Watts is enough' or some such and yet their speakers are only in the low or mid 90s for efficiency. A sound pressure level meter winnows this fact out quite easily. If the distortion is high people might be yelling at you to turn it down but if distortion is low (and the system is not generating loudness cues) that might not happen until you're at 100dB. Or this might happen in a smaller room if 85 dB vs 95. Do you see what is happening here?

Ralph, this is exactly what I noticed when my current system got dialed in. I’m now able to play my recordings louder in general with less fatigue, but more importantly, I’m able to find the appropriate volume setting for each recording very easily and I can listen for hours.

I think that is precisely because my speakers are 16 ohm 105 DB with my 18 watt SET amplifiers that have low distortion at 10 to 20% of their power rating which I don’t think I ever exceed.

I read your comments about needing to be at very low levels of the power rating to avoid distortion with these types of amps. My very efficient speakers in a pretty small room help the amplifier work in this regard.

I find myself wanting to turn up the volume much more than with my former Pass Magico system. At the same time that system was not very involving at low volumes and needed to be turned up to be enjoyed while my current system can be enjoyed at much lower volumes and turned up quite loud without any issues of long-term fatigue.

I appreciate reading the technical reasons for this

Atmasphere · Jul 11, 2024

PeterA said:
I find myself wanting to turn up the volume much more than with my former Pass Magico system. At the same time that system was not very involving at low volumes and needed to be turned up to be enjoyed while my current system can be enjoyed at much lower volumes and turned up quite loud without any issues of long-term fatigue.

I've encountered this too. There was an older amp called the Electron Kinergetics Eagle, whose designer disappeared under mysterious circumstances such that the FBI got involved. This was a very high power low distortion solid state amp that had a very good rep at the time. I had occasion to listen to one in my home. I found myself trying to turn up the volume to get it to be more involving and maybe get a bit more impact but it just wouldn't do it.

We're on the same page with this: Not only should a system never sound loud but it should effortlessly do the job at low volume too such that at any volume its right.

PeterA · Jul 11, 2024

Atmasphere said:
We're on the same page with this: Not only should a system never sound loud but it should effortlessly do the job at low volume too such that at any volume its right.

I agree that at any volume it can be enjoyed, but different recordings and different music types
encourage one to find different volume levels most appropriate for the individual recording for a greater sense of realism. I turn up rock and big band jazz to more closely remind me of that listening experience when heard live.
With classical music, it depends. There’s large scale with big dynamic swings in loudness and small scale chamber music can be all over the place too, but there is usually one volume setting were all clicks in to sound most convincing. The ability to find that volume by adjusting it without losing engagement is very important and I think the hallmark of a good system. Some systems allow this more than others.

Atmasphere · Jul 11, 2024

PeterA said:
I agree that at any volume it can be enjoyed, but different recordings and different music types
encourage one to find different volume levels most appropriate for the individual recording for a greater sense of realism. I turn up rock and big band jazz to more closely remind me of that listening experience when heard live.
With classical music, it depends. There’s large scale with big dynamic swings in loudness and small scale chamber music can be all over the place too, but there is usually one volume setting were all clicks in to sound most convincing. The ability to find that volume by adjusting it without losing engagement is very important and I think the hallmark of a good system. Some systems allow this more than others.

Do you have a copy of Verdi's Requiem on the RCA Soria series box set? It has a very wide dynamic range (side 1 track 2)!

PeterA · Jul 11, 2024

Atmasphere said:
Do you have a copy of Verdi's Requiem on the RCA Soria series box set? It has a very wide dynamic range (side 1 track 2)!

I do not think so, but it is possible. I inherited a lot of box sets from my father and from my in-laws.

I do have some recordings with large swings and it’s a bit tough to nail down the volume, especially when it’s loud at the beginning of the side. I usually adjust for each recording so that it sounds appropriate for the venue and types of instruments based on the distance of the imaging from the listening seat. They usually falls within a fairly narrow range, but there are always some recordings that are of a more distant perspective or very close. My old system had a more difficult time with this range and finding the right volume because it could not play as convincingly at lower volumes, and started to distort at higher volumes,

Mike Lavigne · Jul 11, 2024

Atmasphere said:
Do you have a copy of Verdi's Requiem on the RCA Soria series box set? It has a very wide dynamic range (side 1 track 2)!

Playing it now. Very wide dynamic range….and SPL range.....lots of scale.....helps to have a special first watt, relatively easy load, and lots of amp headroom.

Holmz · Jul 11, 2024

PeterA said:
Is it the harmonics, or harmonic content, of bass notes that allow us to locate the virtual position of a bass player within a soundstage of a recording being reproduced in our listening rooms?

Well both… I would say.
The thing making the sound in the recording has its own harmonics. And if we treat that as holy, and “THE SIGNAL” then that is there, present in the signal.

But if the speaker and amp are adding in yet more harmonics, then the fidelity is “by definition” less, but there are more cues for resolving…. so we might collectively like it better… at least at first.

So I would say for a lot of people it is a combination of the two. (Harmonics of the actual instrument and additional harmonics of the equipment)

Personally I like to start with a quiet sounding system; and would rather start there, than with a bright sounding system and then using ICs and cables to try and tone it down.
The later case is where it might sound exciting and resolving at first, but the love eventually fades and we are left with disposing of all or part of it… in a merry-go-round of upgrades.

In fact the ICs and cable could actually change the slope of the pink noise spectrum in a fight to control the distortion harmonics.
Probably not for a Bass player, but certainly for higher frequency fundamentals.
Everything can get skewed differently depending on their fundamental octave… what a mess to try and fix post-facto…

Holmz · Jul 11, 2024

Atmasphere said:
…
You are mostly correct.

Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while

And thanks for your learned explanation.
(It is hard not appreciate your patience Sir.)

DaveC · Jul 11, 2024

Holmz said:
Well both… I would say.
The thing making the sound in the recording has its own harmonics. And if we treat that as holy, and “THE SIGNAL” then that is there, present in the signal.

But if the speaker and amp are adding in yet more harmonics, then the fidelity is “by definition” less, but there are more cues for resolving…. so we might collectively like it better… at least at first.

So I would say for a lot of people it is a combination of the two. (Harmonics of the actual instrument and additional harmonics of the equipment)

Personally I like to start with a quiet sounding system; and would rather start there, than with a bright sounding system and then using ICs and cables to try and tone it down.
The later case is where it might sound exciting and resolving at first, but the love eventually fades and we are left with disposing of all or part of it… in a merry-go-round of upgrades.

In fact the ICs and cable could actually change the slope of the pink noise spectrum in a fight to control the distortion harmonics.
Probably not for a Bass player, but certainly for higher frequency fundamentals.
Everything can get skewed differently depending on their fundamental octave… what a mess to try and fix post-facto…

I agree with that, and also add that distortion in bass frequencies is very common in speakers, even my Pioneer S1-EX with two 7" TAD woofers produce a lot of distortion in the bass, 2-3x as much as my single 15" Acoustic Elegance woofers. It's a huge difference in bass quality. There's often a lot of warmth added from the rest of the system too. At bass frequencies both harmonic distortion and warmth from the system sound very similar, the additional harmonics make for "fuller" bass, but it also obscures detail and to the point of this thread, contributes to a slow sound. I actually make subwoofer cabling called "Clear Bass" to reduce added warmth, and improve pace and timing as a result. It helps subs "keep up" with a quality main speaker.

Most high end speaker companies won't give you a large enough speaker that produces quality bass until you spend a lot of cash, I like the idea of having different lines instead, so you can get the same size speaker at different price points. The improvements you get from simply having larger driver surface area and better efficiency are a top priority for me. Not needing a huge amp is a plus, except for bass... class D for bass has gotten really good and can work really well, so power is unlimited and cheap. Good and very efficient bass means something really large most people can't fit in their homes.

I also agree with avoiding use of cabling to tone it down, warmth added by cables reduces resolution and is best avoided. But you also need warmth to balance out noise and harshness, otherwise you get fatigued. So I get it, it's easier to change cables than components, and it's not that easy for most people to figure out which cables to get if you want the most neutral result right off the bat. To a degree, the most neutral sounding cable won't be the same for every application, but it's also true that the more neutral and objectively good a cable, is the more likely it is to work in a particular system. Hard to say who is right, imo the best materials and design make a good cable but others prefer cables they think sounds good. I guess everyone is right if that makes them happy with their system...

JackD201 · Jul 11, 2024

Holmz said:
Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while

And thanks for your learned explanation.
(It is hard not appreciate your patience Sir.)

I would hope so since they use their noses to do that LOL

PYP · Jul 11, 2024

PeterA said:
Ralph, this is exactly what I noticed when my current system got dialed in. I’m now able to play my recordings louder in general with less fatigue, but more importantly, I’m able to find the appropriate volume setting for each recording very easily and I can listen for hours.

my current system can be enjoyed at much lower volumes and turned up quite loud without any issues of long-term fatigue.

This now makes sense to me.

With recent changes in the source gear, I was puzzled when I couldn't tell what the volume was when I used the remote (the preamp's app does indicate volume level). Previous to making these changes, I could always tell if the system was loud or not. This was not only puzzling, but I also worried about listening at excessive levels. I started to use an app to measure the dB level. Eventually, I learned how to better sense the actual volume.

At the same time, I very much enjoy low volume listening. It became a kind of a game of "how low can you go?" and still have all the music represented.

Since I stream most of the time and the albums are recorded at very different volume levels, volume needs to be adjusted for each album to get an ideal level.

Overall, the ability to easily engage with the music has increased and the consistency of transparency during day as well as night has also increased.

It is educational to read about these qualities in systems that are very different from mine and to better understand the reasons as per @Atmasphere 's explanation.

Ron Resnick · Jul 12, 2024

Atmasphere said:
'Resolution' is usually not a bass thing. Bass can have extension and impact. But if you are hearing resolution of bass notes, its because higher harmonics of that instrument are allowing you to locate where it is and its tonal character. The short answer is 'no' to the first and 'yes' to the second.

I agree.

Holmz · Jul 12, 2024

DaveC said:
I agree with that, and also add that distortion in bass frequencies is very common in speakers, even my Pioneer S1-EX with two 7" TAD woofers produce a lot of distortion in the bass, 2-3x as much as my single 15" Acoustic Elegance woofers. It's a huge difference in bass quality. There's often a lot of warmth added from the rest of the system too. At bass frequencies both harmonic distortion and warmth from the system sound very similar, the additional harmonics make for "fuller" bass, but it also obscures detail and to the point of this thread, contributes to a slow sound. I actually make subwoofer cabling called "Clear Bass" to reduce added warmth, and improve pace and timing as a result. It helps subs "keep up" with a quality main speaker.

Most high end speaker companies won't give you a large enough speaker that produces quality bass until you spend a lot of cash, I like the idea of having different lines instead, so you can get the same size speaker at different price points. The improvements you get from simply having larger driver surface area and better efficiency are a top priority for me. Not needing a huge amp is a plus, except for bass... class D for bass has gotten really good and can work really well, so power is unlimited and cheap. Good and very efficient bass means something really large most people can't fit in their homes.

I also agree with avoiding use of cabling to tone it down, warmth added by cables reduces resolution and is best avoided. But you also need warmth to balance out noise and harshness, otherwise you get fatigued. So I get it, it's easier to change cables than components, and it's not that easy for most people to figure out which cables to get if you want the most neutral result right off the bat. To a degree, the most neutral sounding cable won't be the same for every application, but it's also true that the more neutral and objectively good a cable, is the more likely it is to work in a particular system. Hard to say who is right, imo the best materials and design make a good cable but others prefer cables they think sounds good. I guess everyone is right if that makes them happy with their system...

Yeah but…
The distortion in a speaker in the bass region is limited to that bass driver.
Whereas the distortion harmonics in the amp (SET or otherwise) would be rising and actually worse in the upper octaves.
And any feedback is easy at the low 20Hz end, and much more difficult as one gets towards the 20 kHz end.

treitz3 · Jul 12, 2024

Atmasphere said:
'Resolution' -It's the mark of the best systems that they do not sound loud even when they are.

Absolutely and without question.

Tom

morricab · Jul 12, 2024

Holmz said:
Yeah but…
The distortion in a speaker in the bass region is limited to that bass driver.
Whereas the distortion harmonics in the amp (SET or otherwise) would be rising and actually worse in the upper octaves.
And any feedback is easy at the low 20Hz end, and much more difficult as one gets towards the 20 kHz end.

The distortion is not a problem if:

1)The rise and pattern of the distortion are consistent with the rise of the ear's self-generated distortion, which increases with SPL . If these criteria are met, then the amp will continue to sound transparent and natural.
2) Because there is an SPL dependence, it means that speaker sensitivity and load are relevant to the equation as well If the speaker is too insensitive or difficult load, the amp will start to distort in ways that are no longer masked by the ear/brain's own distortion (that is where masking comes from to begin with). If you listen loud, then you will need high sensitivity speakers to get the best that a no feedback SET can deliver. If you listen at quite low volumes then it is possible for an amp of that type to still work successfully. Realistically, something well above 90db/watt are probably needed and above 95dB preferred. The bigger the space and the further you sit from the speakers, the higher the sensitivity would be needed to balance the distortion rise and stay within "the pocket".

Holmz · Jul 12, 2024

morricab said:
The distortion is not a problem if:

1)The rise and pattern of the distortion are consistent with the rise of the ear's self-generated distortion, which increases with SPL . If these criteria are met, then the amp will continue to sound transparent and natural.
2) Because there is an SPL dependence, it means that speaker sensitivity and load are relevant to the equation as well If the speaker is too insensitive or difficult load, the amp will start to distort in ways that are no longer masked by the ear/brain's own distortion (that is where masking comes from to begin with). If you listen loud, then you will need high sensitivity speakers to get the best that a no feedback SET can deliver. If you listen at quite low volumes then it is possible for an amp of that type to still work successfully. Realistically, something well above 90db/watt are probably needed and above 95dB preferred. The bigger the space and the further you sit from the speakers, the higher the sensitivity would be needed to balance the distortion rise and stay within "the pocket".

I agree that if one is coming to the party with a SET under their arm, then speakers that are appropriate for them is a good idea.

But if one already has hard to drive speakers, then a SET is not something that they should have under their arm when walking out of the shop.

There are a number of “high end”speakers that have 4 ohm drivers, and difficult crossovers.
These make life pretty challenging for many amps.
It is certainly a lot easier to find a solution with having easier to drive speakers, and avoid being railroaded into the esoteric/arcane amps.

Does Tonal Balance Affect Perceived Pace and Perceived Resolution?

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