2.4KW amp, anyone?

If I may intrude......

It appears Frankie here has been trying to tell us the same thing Roger has, Mike L has and GASP! Tim has.

Whenever Tim talks about going active, getting rid of pesky crossovers, and having as a result lots of CLEAN power for each driver, not only are we minimizing distortion (signal) but as Don has said in his rumble filter example in another thread although the other way around, noise too.

Can you increase dynamic range without adding up top, in this case more power? Of course we can! We drop the bottom! Where I disagree with Frankie is that he apparently feels the physical environment is of little consequence, and it can all be done in the electrical realm. I personally feel you have to address both. Whether it is building a quiet room or doing nearfield, the caveat is that the lower the external influences, the quieter, the more audible low level noise and distortion become. I do agree with Frank that these little things add up. The maddening thing is that this, at least in my case, it initially comes in the form of instinctive feelings of things not being right and it takes a lot of time to figure out and identify the contributing elements of what I think of as low level pollution. My analogy is of airborne particulates. You know there's smog but you don't know what it's made of. The composition varies from city to city.

I do not agree with Frank that it is possible to make everything sound good, well maybe, but not without dumbing down the recording. If it was messed up in the recording, if the noise and distortion are in the recording there's no way to fix it. I've explained my view on this many times so no need for me to do it all again here.

So! What ya building Frank? And yes, don't forget the pictures :)
 
I do not agree with Frank that it is possible to make everything sound good, well maybe, but not without dumbing down the recording. If it was messed up in the recording, if the noise and distortion are in the recording there's no way to fix it. I've explained my view on this many times so no need for me to do it all again here.
This is also the nub of least one of Tim's complaints about me, but for me it is the whole point of doing what I have been doing for the last 25 years or so. If I can't play a "messed up" recording at real volume levels or know that I can get to that point, then to me there's no point to the exercise: I would rather just dump the whole audio system into the rubbish bin. I have listened to too much really irritating hifi over the years to put up with it, with very much equanimity anymore ...

No-one's owned up to having the Status Quo album yet: what about Paul Simon's "Graceland"? I might be able to set up some reference point about playback quality using this one ...

So! What ya building Frank? And yes, don't forget the pictures :)
Like I said, a good, powerful amp, you rude boy, you!

Frank
 
That's what the headmaster used to call me ;) ;) ;)
 
Frank, I never said anything about your status quo album. I told you that was what JOHN said.

I don't know even what the album is, so how could I personally comment. Not that I would be running out to buy status quo mind haha.
 
Can you increase dynamic range without adding up top, in this case more power? Of course we can! We drop the bottom! Where I disagree with Frankie is that he apparently feels the physical environment is of little consequence, and it can all be done in the electrical realm. I personally feel you have to address both. Whether it is building a quiet room or doing nearfield, the caveat is that the lower the external influences, the quieter, the more audible low level noise and distortion become.
Just to add something here, I feel strongly that to truly achieve realistic reproduction you do need the high SPLs, no matter what. I'm with Basspig on this one. Yes, you can get dynamic range by dropping the noise floor but to my mind it will never achieve the true impact of live sound, as the ear/brain interprets it.

Or maybe you just have very, very sensitive hearing, Jack. Maybe that headmaster yelled at you so much that it damaged your pearllike ears, hmmm ...?? :D

And, hello, hello, has nobody out there got "Graceland" ...?

Frank
 
If I may intrude......

It appears Frankie here has been trying to tell us the same thing Roger has, Mike L has and GASP! Tim has.

Good observation, Jack. Frank and I (and many, I think) agree that the reduction of noise and distortion is the most important thing you can do to improve audio electronics. Depending on how strictly you define those two terms, they could be the only thing you can do to improve audio electronics.

What Frank and I disagree on is everything else...how you reduce noise and distortion in electronics, how important the reduction of very small amounts of noise and distortion in electronics is relative to speaker design and placement and room conditions, and what the audible effects of the reduction of noise and distortion can and cannot be.

Its a pretty good-sized gap. One recent example? A few days ago my wife moved the shelves filled with stored papers and office supplies that coved the back wall of my listening room. My diffusers are gone, and that wall is not bare. Until I treat it, I'm sure that is having a greater impact on the real sound of my system than any tweak Frank has ever described here.

Frank, I don't have the Status Quo album, though I do have several very bad recordings. I do own Graceland and wouldn't put it on that list.

Tim
 
Frank, I don't have the Status Quo album, though I do have several very bad recordings. I do own Graceland and wouldn't put it on that list.

Tim
Tim, on Graceland, Tk 3, "I Know What I Know", at elapsed times 4 secs, and 25 secs into the track there are short bursts of drumming about a couple of secs long with high levels of reverb added to the sound. How would you characterise the clarity and rendering of those particular short sequences of sound on your system?

Frank
 
Tim, on Graceland, Tk 3, "I Know What I Know", at elapsed times 4 secs, and 25 secs into the track there are short bursts of drumming about a couple of secs long with high levels of reverb added to the sound. How would you characterise the clarity and rendering of those particular short sequences of sound on your system?

Frank

I'll give it a listen this evening and let you know.


Tim
 
So I finally heard the GAT. Frankly, it blew me away. The guys in the room said it was by far the best CJ they'd heard, and it certainly is the best CJ i've heard (i've owned two...PV14L and ACT 2). Here's my notes:

- transparent to invisible...i've not ever felt that a pre was invisible until this one...
- i think it has to do with extreme alacrity...its so fast, it does not feel like the component is taking in a signal, processing it, and then having to 'push' it back out thru a series of cones/speakers. music just seemed to fly/breathe effortlessly (with no resistance) thru the component if that makes any sense.
- it is also very even across the spectrum...super balanced
- it is also very, very quiet...which means you really do start to hear your music as if for the first time with all the new detail
- the extension of the unit is far greater than the ACT 2. it ain't close, and i like the ACT 2
- dynamically, you understand quite quickly the ACT 2 is very limited (which i already knew)
- finally, CJ left their DNA in the unit...it always manages to feel completely at ease and completely natural (which the ACT 2 does not in comparison)
This is a nice little piece posted by lloydelee21 on another thread, thanks for the lend(!), which some of you may tune into, it's another way of describing what I'm after in components. If what I propose to build doesn't create that impression on people then I'll consider the project a failure ...

So the motto will be, power with poise ... :)

Frank
 
Tim, on Graceland, Tk 3, "I Know What I Know", at elapsed times 4 secs, and 25 secs into the track there are short bursts of drumming about a couple of secs long with high levels of reverb added to the sound. How would you characterise the clarity and rendering of those particular short sequences of sound on your system?

Frank

I'd characterize it as a snare drum, Frank, with the snares set pretty loose. It might be a marching snare, but it's hard to tell with the depth of reverb being used. It's definitely not a piccolo snare. There's no rim in the strike, not even the tight outer edge of the skin. The drummer is working the middle of the skin, and in spite of that, the engineer has not only added a lot of reverb, but a good bit of lower midrange as well. They wanted it to be gritty and explosive, loud, yet distant. They accomplished their mission. And it's not just at 4 and 25 seconds, it's all through the opening of the song, on the second beat of every other bar.

How would you characterize it, Frank?

Tim

PS: Oh yeah...the mic is not close. And I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the snare was set up in a fair-sized space all by itself with no kit around it. It sounds like it has some space. That last part, however, is pure speculation.
 
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I'd characterize it as a snare drum, Frank, with the snares set pretty loose. It might be a marching snare, but it's hard to tell with the depth of reverb being used. It's definitely not a piccolo snare. There's no rim in the strike, not even the tight outer edge of the skin. The drummer is working the middle of the skin, and in spite of that, the engineer has not only added a lot of reverb, but a good bit of lower midrange as well. They wanted it to be gritty and explosive, loud, yet distant. They accomplished their mission. And it's not just at 4 and 25 seconds, it's all through the opening of the song, on the second beat of every other bar.

How would you characterize it, Frank?

Tim

I'm not sure he can right now Tim. I think the HTIAB is currently on life support. By the way, I have both the LP and CD of this album. I haven't listened to the CD in quite some time since I could never stand the sound of it. The LP sounded like a completely different version and for the better.
 
I'm not sure he can right now Tim. I think the HTIAB is currently on life support. By the way, I have both the LP and CD of this album. I haven't listened to the CD in quite some time since I could never stand the sound of it. The LP sounded like a completely different version and for the better.

Yeah, it's not the best digital master I've ever heard, but it's pretty far from the worst too. Plenty good enough to reveal the secrets of a snare drum. I dunno, maybe Frank wanted me to say something about how it was like looking through freshly cleaned glass or something, but I figured describing exactly what I heard in the recording says a lot more about the clarity and transparency of a playback system. Now watch Bruce come along, tell me he knows the guy who engineered Graceland, and that the thing was actually a floor tom full of rocks being beaten by rubber hammers. :) I still owe you a loaner CD. Haven't forgotten, I'm just a bit preoccupied at the moment...

Tim
 
Yeah, it's not the best digital master I've ever heard, but it's pretty far from the worst too. Plenty good enough to reveal the secrets of a snare drum. I dunno, maybe Frank wanted me to say something about how it was like looking through freshly cleaned glass or something, but I figured describing exactly what I heard in the recording says a lot more about the clarity and transparency of a playback system. Now watch Bruce come along, tell me he knows the guy who engineered Graceland, and that the thing was actually a floor tom full of rocks being beaten by rubber hammers. :) I still owe you a loaner CD. Haven't forgotten, I'm just a bit preoccupied at the moment...

Tim
Thanks for the feedback, Tim, and you as well, Mark. What I was after is how well you could read the acoustic being excited at those points in time. Yes, I know that the actual drum sequence occurs elsewhere in the track, but at those points the level of engineering that's been applied in terms of the reverb is much greater than elsewhere.

On systems not up to scratch the reverb gets mixed up with the direct sound so it sounds like a complete cacophany, a bit of a blurred mess: it is very hard to separate the reverb content from the direct. When the system is sorted to a very good level then it becomes easy to read the 2 different elements of the sound at that point: the direct snare sound as one sound, and all the reverb as an added, distant complement. If the system can do this properly at a low level of playback volume then start winding up the volume and see how far you go before there are audible problems intruding ...

Frank
 
Don't look at me, my big rig can play "with lots of poise" past 100dB sustained 120dB peaks from 20Hz to above what my handheld RTA can measure. Not the most poised system I've heard as I have heard better than my own and certainly not Basspig levels but not puny levels either.

It's not what the system can do it's how I normally use it. While I try for 85dB max most of the time, It isn't unusually for me to go 90 sustained 100+ peaks at the listening position. Higher than the doctor recommended I know, but I don't want to have roadie ears later on. Dropping the bottom helps me enjoy without frying my ears (too much) :)

Actually I DON'T have sensitive hearing. I was not blessed (or cursed) with bat like ears. I even have mild tinnitus that pops up when I'm tired or stressed. I have been trained and continue to train myself to listen though. I'm particularly sensitive to thermal compression. I believe I've detailed how I listen in one of Sparky's threads.

But we stray my desert dwelling friend, I like the "poised" motto. Build it! Once again, don't forget the pics :p
 
I think the HTIAB is currently on life support. By the way, I have both the LP and CD of this album. I haven't listened to the CD in quite some time since I could never stand the sound of it. The LP sounded like a completely different version and for the better.
The Philips is behaving itself at the moment. Just curious, in what way would you say the CD was "bad"? Harsh, congested, lacking life? What's the quality of Paul's voice on playback: does it sound low key, relaxed, easily floating over the top of the instruments in a clear, lifelike way? From the sound of what you're saying, no ....

Frank
 
It has been too long since I listened to this CD to provide detailed comments on why I didn't like it. In plain english, it just sounded like crap. I don't even know if I could suffer through it again.
 
Don't look at me, my big rig can play "with lots of poise" past 100dB sustained 120dB peaks from 20Hz to above what my handheld RTA can measure. Not the most poised system I've heard as I have heard better than my own and certainly not Basspig levels but not puny levels either.
Would you say the qualities of the sound don't change from playing at plus 100dB levels to then dropping it back to 85dB normal. As an experiment, if you had it at +100 and moved to the furthest from the speakers in the room or even went outside to some degree, and then dropped it to 85 and stood very close and central to the speakers that the sound doesn't change in tone, etc.

As for building, still a long, long way to go. Looks like the interest is there, so starting to firm up some ideas. One way of doing it will need 32 active devices per side, intelligent transistors, so to speak ...

Frank
 
It has been too long since I listened to this CD to provide detailed comments on why I didn't like it. In plain english, it just sounded like crap. I don't even know if I could suffer through it again.
I know what you mean, having listened to similar material on various systems where edginess is easily triggered on playback. As I have said many times, CD is hard, very hard at times, but it is worth persisting with. Anyway, you have largely bypassed the "problems" by going to a music server ...

Frank
 
I know what you mean, having listened to similar material on various systems where edginess is easily triggered on playback. As I have said many times, CD is hard, very hard at times, but it is worth persisting with. Anyway, you have largely bypassed the "problems" by going to a music server ...

Frank

I'm listening to it on headphones right now. I don't hear any harshness. No crap either. "Under African Skies" is sounding lovely, smooth, spacious...instruments well separated, good detail resolution, good tonal balance, great vocal clarity. Not muddy or bright. Good stuff.

Tim
 
I remember it as sounding thin and bright, but it was a long time ago and I never loaded it onto my server to play it back from the hard drive. If you think it really sounds good, I will give it another whirl and load it onto my server.
 

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