advice please on cleaning up a midrange issue

[GeoffR]

Hi all, I’m new to this forum, although I’ve been reading for a few months. Great advice here so I’m hoping to get some help solving an issue with my system.

The upper midrange – snare drums, lower register cymbals, some female vocals, even some male vocals (David Gray on Babylon for example) – can become fuzzy, harsh, messy (sorry, don’t have the technical terms for what I’m hearing). Depending on the recording it can become almost unlistenable, or maybe more accurately, an unpleasant focus when everything else sounds good. It’s far better on simple recordings (jazz trios for example) and far worse when the music gets ‘busy’ (pop/rock).

The rest of my system, to my ears, sounds fantastic. I just don’t like saying “ugg, what’s that” as often as I do, and it’s always in that same upper midrange.

My system…

The cable company’s standard modem via Cat-6 cable into
Sonic Transporter i5 running Qobuz through Roon (no DSP activated) directly via USB into
Denefrips Pontus 2 Dac with the latest firmware installed (big improvement in bass response when I installed that!) and NOS mode, via Cardas Crosslink interconnects into
Atoll In-200 integrated amp via Cardas 101 speaker cables into
Focal Aria 936 speakers.
Room is fairly well treated with RT-60 around .4 seconds

Any thoughts on how I might be able to clean this up? Do I actually need a dedicated streamer instead going direct from the sonictransporter? Cable upgrades? Other ideas?

Thanks!

 

[Audiohertz2]

Hello ,

When it starts to sound fuzzy , hazy and Harsh lower volume by 3db -5db and report if it is still harsh and fuzzy ..!

1. If it goes away look for an amplifier with 3-4 times more power .

2. If it doesn't go away then keep lowering volume to a fairly low level and if still bad and distorted then it maybe your input signal or recording and not a power issue.

3. A good pr of headphones can help you here too ...! If its distorted on the phones then its either a poor recording or input signal over drive issue ..!

 

[GeoffR]

Thanks for the response! I didn’t even consider the amp as being underpowered, so I will run through this when I sit down with it later.
FYI, while I can’t recall right now if volume levels have an effect, I can say that I’m typically around mid60’s to low70’s db.

 

[adrianywu]

I am not familiar with your speakers. How old are they ? The drivers might be going into breakup, or the damping has deteriorated and might need to be reconed. Have the speakers been sounding this way since new, or just a recent phenomenon ?

 

[GeoffR]

I am not familiar with your speakers. How old are they ? The drivers might be going into breakup, or the damping has deteriorated and might need to be reconed. Have the speakers been sounding this way since new, or just a recent phenomenon ?

They are floor standing with 5 drivers, (3) 6" woofers, (1) 6" midrange and (1) 1" tweeter. I like them for how precise and detailed they are, as well as for the depth of the soundstage. Very easy to pick out individual instruments, and live recordings in particular sound great. Even electronic music sounds good, but I tend to like electronic music that features lower midrange and bass.

They are just over 2 years old and this is something I've noticed in the last little while, but that coincides with a couple of other changes.
A bit more treatment in the room and a slight repositioning of the speakers that improved bass and imaging. Also, the biggest change for me came when I switched to the sonictransporter from previously using my laptop (still using usb). Huge improvement in every aspect including clarity.

They can sound clean, but again, that's mostly on recordings that feature very clear separation of instruments and with music that doesn't push the upper midrange too hard. It's when we're given that wall of sound that some rock and pop albums provide that I wish it would handle that better.

Hello ,

When it starts to sound fuzzy , hazy and Harsh lower volume by 3db -5db and report if it is still harsh and fuzzy ..!

1. If it goes away look for an amplifier with 3-4 times more power .

2. If it doesn't go away then keep lowering volume to a fairly low level and if still bad and distorted then it maybe your input signal or recording and not a power issue.

3. A good pr of headphones can help you here too ...! If its distorted on the phones then its either a poor recording or input signal over drive issue ..!

I did some testing on some recordings I know sound good, and also with some I wish sounded better...
1. I did this db test and the fuzziness was still present regardless of volume. I even went up over 80db and funny enough it sounded a bit better, maybe because the bass increased with volume and masked it a bit?
2. You used the word distorted. Thanks for that, because maybe that's actually a better description of what I'm hearing.
3. I don't have good headphones, but I do have airpod pro's so I listened specifically for the noise I was concerned about, and sure enough it was present there too. While the quality of sound wasn't comparable, it was easier to listen that specific music without the "distortion" being overly distracting.

I'm left wondering if, for some reason, my combination of components is pushing that distortion too far? I've also read that some systems are better suited for different kinds of music than others? It seems for me, that if there is distortion there, it's being either exposed or enhanced.

I appreciate the suggestions on how to work through evaluating this!

 

[adrianywu]

Do a frequency sweep if you have a measurement mic and look at the distortion figures to see if distortion goes up at certain frequency bands. Or use a test CD with wobble tones and listen if you don’t have means to do measurements.

 

[ecwl]

To elaborate on @adrianywu’s suggestions further, you said the RT60 is <.4 seconds, do you have a current measurement of your system with REW that you can show us, frequency response & resonance?
One possibility is that one of your speakers is slightly broken and you’ll see that on the measurement (or even hear it when you run a frequency sweep).
Another possibility is that your recent changes caused a new bass resonance that is muffling the upper midrange.
These things are almost impossible to diagnose without a new measurement.

 

[adrianywu]

To elaborate on @adrianywu’s suggestions further, you said the RT60 is <.4 seconds, do you have a current measurement of your system with REW that you can show us, frequency response & resonance?
One possibility is that one of your speakers is slightly broken and you’ll see that on the measurement (or even hear it when you run a frequency sweep).
Another possibility is that your recent changes caused a new bass resonance that is muffling the upper midrange.
These things are almost impossible to diagnose without a new measurement.

You can't measure the RT60 in a domestic listening environment, BTW, unless you have a concert hall sized living room.

 

[ecwl]

You can't measure the RT60 in a domestic listening environment, BTW, unless you have a concert hall sized living room.

Haha. Very true. Very true. I really should start using proper terminologies. Even if OP was the first person to use that terminology.

On the other hand, while you’re at it, since most people use REW, you should probably encourage the REW website to clarify this issue because obviously this is where we pick up these misuse of terminology. I think your feedback would have a lot more impact with the REW team than in this forum.

 

[Audiohertz2]

They are floor standing with 5 drivers, (3) 6" woofers, (1) 6" midrange and (1) 1" tweeter. I like them for how precise and detailed they are, as well as for the depth of the soundstage. Very easy to pick out individual instruments, and live recordings in particular sound great. Even electronic music sounds good, but I tend to like electronic music that features lower midrange and bass.

They are just over 2 years old and this is something I've noticed in the last little while, but that coincides with a couple of other changes.
A bit more treatment in the room and a slight repositioning of the speakers that improved bass and imaging. Also, the biggest change for me came when I switched to the sonictransporter from previously using my laptop (still using usb). Huge improvement in every aspect including clarity.

They can sound clean, but again, that's mostly on recordings that feature very clear separation of instruments and with music that doesn't push the upper midrange too hard. It's when we're given that wall of sound that some rock and pop albums provide that I wish it would handle that better.



I did some testing on some recordings I know sound good, and also with some I wish sounded better...
1. I did this db test and the fuzziness was still present regardless of volume. I even went up over 80db and funny enough it sounded a bit better, maybe because the bass increased with volume and masked it a bit?
2. You used the word distorted. Thanks for that, because maybe that's actually a better description of what I'm hearing.
3. I don't have good headphones, but I do have airpod pro's so I listened specifically for the noise I was concerned about, and sure enough it was present there too. While the quality of sound wasn't comparable, it was easier to listen that specific music without the "distortion" being overly distracting.

I'm left wondering if, for some reason, my combination of components is pushing that distortion too far? I've also read that some systems are better suited for different kinds of music than others? It seems for me, that if there is distortion there, it's being either exposed or enhanced.

I appreciate the suggestions on how to work through evaluating this!

Ok now focus on the source , determine if i the distortion is in the recording or playback , you can do this by changing out your source to your pre amp if you can ..

 

[Audiohertz2]

You can't measure the RT60 in a domestic listening environment, BTW, unless you have a concert hall sized living room.

Never heard of this before , you can RT 60 any room for reverberation time , .5 -.7 is typical for avg rooms of 12x12x8 for eg ..

Rooms are then treated to achieve desired RT60 times ...!

 

[ecwl]

Never heard of this before , you can RT 60 any room for reverberation time , .5 -.7 is typical for avg rooms of 12x12x8 for eg ..

Rooms are then treated to achieve desired RT60 times ...!

The REW website does sort of explain why RT60 is not the greatest terminology to use

RT60 Graph

I personally also only use the waterfall plot or usually the spectrogram to explore the resonances.

The problem is that most of us already think that RT60 is what my software tells me the estimated RT60 is. It is used (or misused) so commonly that I don’t know whether it’s worthwhile to correct myself. It has almost become a reference for most of us when we talk about our rooms, even though it might be a poor reference of a number that isn’t a true RT60.

It almost reminds me of learning English grammar from 50 years ago. I shall do something is correct and I will do something is wrong. Except most people say I will do something nowadays so is it still wrong if people know what they’re referring to? Times change. Words are just artificial constructs. Their meaning are contextual and can change with the times.

 

[GeoffR]

You can't measure the RT60 in a domestic listening environment, BTW, unless you have a concert hall sized living room.

I don’t … 12’ w (equipment at this wall) x 32’ L x 8’ H - speakers approx 2’ from side walls and approx. 4’ from front wall (approx 8’ apart and 9’ish from listening position).

Never heard of this before , you can RT 60 any room for reverberation time , .5 -.7 is typical for avg rooms of 12x12x8 for eg ..

Rooms are then treated to achieve desired RT60 times ...!

Sorry if I confused the issue by providing this measurement/terminology, but this was my understanding of RT 60 as well.
And, haha, I was quite proud of myself for getting it in that .4 range.

To elaborate on @adrianywu’s suggestions further, you said the RT60 is <.4 seconds, do you have a current measurement of your system with REW that you can show us, frequency response & resonance?
One possibility is that one of your speakers is slightly broken and you’ll see that on the measurement (or even hear it when you run a frequency sweep).
Another possibility is that your recent changes caused a new bass resonance that is muffling the upper midrange.
These things are almost impossible to diagnose without a new measurement.

Do a frequency sweep if you have a measurement mic and look at the distortion figures to see if distortion goes up at certain frequency bands. Or use a test CD with wobble tones and listen if you don’t have means to do measurements.

I do have REW and I did a measurement about 6 months ago (which is where the Rt60 came from), but I will pull it out again and re-measure. That might be a weekend thing, but I will attach results when I get them. If it’s not clear by now, I am in over head on the technical part of this, so I really appreciate the offer to look at it.

Ok now focus on the source , determine if i the distortion is in the recording or playback , you can do this by changing out your source to your pre amp if you can ..

This I can do!

Potentially silly question regarding the speakers… they do sound clean on some recordings, even when I put my ear to those specific midrange drivers (L and R). If they are perhaps damaged, would that only show up occasionally … EG: when a specific frequency was hit, or if damaged should they sound distorted all the time?

 

[sbnx]

Can you post a picture

 

[ecwl]

I do have REW and I did a measurement about 6 months ago (which is where the Rt60 came from), but I will pull it out again and re-measure. That might be a weekend thing, but I will attach results when I get them. If it’s not clear by now, I am in over head on the technical part of this, so I really appreciate the offer to look at it.

If you measured 6 months ago in REW and you changed nothing and the sound is the same as 6 months ago, you actually don’t need to measure. Just go to the frequency response and the spectrogram sections instead of relying on the RT60 analysis. Ideally you should have separate left and right measurements. And you can mathematically convolute what stereo sounds like in terms of frequency response. That would save you some time.

 

[adrianywu]

The explanation on the REW website explains quite well why RT60 measurements are meaningless in rooms with dimensions that lead to modal resonances within the system bandwidth.

 

[sbnx]

Here is a quote from the REW manual. It does not say that RT60 is meaningless. It says that below a few hundred hertz RT60 is meaningless.

From the REW Manual
"As a result RT60 is typically not meaningful in such rooms below a few hundred Hz. "

I find that the measurement is information that can be used just like frequency response or ETC. It is a repeatable measurement. (I will get the same RT60 plot if I do repeated measurements without moving anything) The RT60 curve will respond to moving the speakers or mic position. The RT60 curve will also respond to the addition of acoustic panels.

The OP said his room has an RT60 of 0.4. This is just a number and not all that useful. It just says that the room is not overly echoey. More important is what the RT60 curve looks like. If the curve is 0.3 at all frequencies but at 400Hz it shoots up to 0.7 then that is a problem. The average RT60 is fine. But frequencies around 400Hz will sound really bad..

 

[adrianywu]

The explanation on the REW website explains quite well why RT60 measurements are meaningless in rooms with dimensions that lead to modal resonances within the system bandwidth.

My late friend who designed my listening room and a few well regarded concert halls told me not to bother with the RT60 as a numerical measurement.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Thats one thought ..!

To note an RT60 test Is just a reference based on design goals not “the” reference , each room/Hall design has a targeted goal based on desired sound. Same as diffusing vs absorption , bass traps vs no bass traps , each can make the room active , neutral or (dead) resistive..!

The combination and interpretation of all measurements are necessary and essential, this is one of the reasons why designing and treating a listening room is so difficult without end user operational input , regardless of what the REW website says ..

 

[GeoffR]

If you measured 6 months ago in REW and you changed nothing and the sound is the same as 6 months ago, you actually don’t need to measure. Just go to the frequency response and the spectrogram sections instead of relying on the RT60 analysis. Ideally you should have separate left and right measurements. And you can mathematically convolute what stereo sounds like in terms of frequency response. That would save you some time.

I did 3 new measurements with REW this evening... L speaker, R speaker and L+R together. These are the spectrogram captures. Are these helpful? I did new measurements because I've changed a couple of things since then?
If you don't mind me asking, does anything obvious jump out.