Aesthetix Io Users Group

[audioquest4life]

It’s an impressive feat to have and to be able to test so many 12ax7 Telefunken tubes for low noise. I experimented years ago with TAD, PSVane, RFT, and Siemens. Interestingly, I settled into Siemens 12au7 for while into my Octave Reference Jubilee preamp and then tried the PSvane 12au7 and have settled on them for the Octave since. That’s also when I experimented with non NOS into the IO again and found after lots of experimentation that the trusted Sovtek 12AxLPS fit the best into the first gain stage and EH12ax7 low noise tested in the 2nd and 3rd stages. I also opted to use new Mullards in the power supply.

i have not tried the new Gold Lion 12ax7s yet into the IO as I have not see any write ups about using that particular tube wit the IO yet. I do know the Sovtek 12ax7 LPS low noise, low micronics and matched sounds awesome with the IO And I can crank up the volume without any virtual tube hiss With the combination of tubes I am using. Another reason I got off the NOS tube roll is that I dont have time to experiment and had some bad tubes more often with NOS than with newer tubes Which I do keep boxes of in reserve.

Speaking of tube testing, I use the Maximatcher tube tester for power tubes but will obtain the Maxipreamp II for triode tubes this week. It can also measure tube noise.

 

[Kcin]

Hi Kcin - I sure respect your work! I also use a tube tester, Beck RM-1. It is useful in some respects, but it does not really tell me how quiet the 12ax7s are. I have to try them in the first Io gain stage itself, to find out. I also have a small Jade OTL headphone amp, with one 6as7g and one 12ax7, very easy to swap tubes, and easy to hear musical difference, but again - not the level of background noise. I think this is due to the special context of the Io's first gain stage (very demanding on the tube). Like you, I've found that Tele 12ax7s that become a bit too noisy there, may still perform OK in the later gain stages. Question: is there some standard measure indicating the level of background noise, for example, when looking for tubes e g on ebay? "Tested strong" and similar isn't enough, in my experience.

Hi OGH ,

Sounds like you have a good method of screening the 12ax7s with other amps as a test bed. I don't know of any standard measure that you or I would find plausible to use at home to assess tube noise. When buying tubes from ebay- and I've done it- its a risk.

With the Io for at least the first two positions - you want to screen the tubes yourself, pay for a reputable service- not sure what available in the EU though, or go new stock like the Sovtek LPS which can be very quiet.

I am not sure what Aesthetix is supplying now. Btw I use Mullard 12ax7 as the error amps in the PS and Mullard Xf2 el34s as the regulators... the xf2 have been in there for many years and have not degraded- they are one tough tube. This is what I found sounds good to me.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .

Speaking of tube testing, I use the Maximatcher tube tester for power tubes but will obtain the Maxipreamp II for triode tubes this week. It can also measure tube noise.

Those tube testers look a lot more contemporary than the other testers I have seen.

 

[audioquest4life]

Those tube testers look a lot more contemporary than the other testers I have seen.

Yes, they are. The company that builds them are into other measurement and technical consulting for global manufacturers. This company, Maximatcher seems like a side hustle to serve a niche which I appreciate. I got tired of looking for testers and having to deal with maintenance and repairs to get a 30 year plus device to test tubes. For some things I am more of a plug and play and forget type of person. Hence, the reason I went with a newer and modern tester. The Classic tube testing market is drying up and becoming scarce and prices are skyrocketing as people like us are getting more involved with tubes. I gave up looking for older testers which may not have any guarantee of working properly.

Don’t ask my why I still have Pioneer RT 909s reel to reel, and CTF 750 and 1250 cassette decks, . I guess nostalgia for some things will never go away until the wife throws them out when I am not looking...

 

[OGH]

The tube with the lowest background noise that I have ever heard in the first gain stage of the Io is the (new production) JJECC83S that I got from Aesthetix after the factory repair, back in 2017. Clearly less noisy than my Telefunkens (and others). However I am not sure if this goes for all or most of these tubes, or if they were specially selected by Aesthetix (I was surprised, since my earlier experience with JJ wasn't very good). If I had a 0.25 mV cartridge, these are the ones I would use. However, with 0.56mV (Lyra Atlas), the best of my Telefunkens are acceptable, to my ears, and I find them more musical than the JJs.

I am interested in other users' experience in this context. The best Telefunken, ECC803S, seems ca impossible to obtain now. Maybe we should look somewhere else (RCA? Tesla? Mullard? Siemens? Genalex?). I bought some (new production) Psvane, but was not impressed. Yes, I know that the rest of the tubes play a role too, and also, how you combine them. Someone (name escapes me, now) wrote a long post on this, on Audiogon. My general impression, making a long story short, is that the more good NOS, including the power supply tubes, the better the sound. But the first gain stage is clearly the most important. Tube rolling is fun, but you can get slightly crazy, also. I have seen some people (was it M Fremer, recently?) preferring stock (new production) tubes. So it is partly a matter of taste. The Io with stock tubes sounds more "solid state", in my experience.

 

[OGH]

Audioquest4life
I just saw your post (#61) now. This is interesting. I've never had this experience with Sovtek 12ax7 LPS, but maybe I didn't have the best exemplars, or didn't break them in sufficiently. I haven't had so good experience with EH, either, but I cannot remember now if it was 12ax7 or some other type. What you say about plug, play and forget appeals to me also. So I don't have to be neurotic about turning the Io off when not in use. I've never tried Gold Lion. Mullards in the p-s - what type, where?

The Beck RM-1 tube tester is made by a German enthusiast (Helmut Beck), https://www.beck-elektroakustik.com/
I ordered a custom-made version that tests all the 8 tube types in my system. Reasonably priced for a new product, and support is very good (no affiliation). The RM-1 only tests plate current / emission, but within that limit, it works well, and is easy to use. So if I get a bad tube, it shows in the tester (or blows a fuse in it, in dire cases), rather than destroying something in the Io itself, or in my other tube equipment.

 

[audioquest4life]

The tube with the lowest background noise that I have ever heard in the first gain stage of the Io is the (new production) JJECC83S that I got from Aesthetix after the factory repair, back in 2017. Clearly less noisy than my Telefunkens (and others). However I am not sure if this goes for all or most of these tubes, or if they were specially selected by Aesthetix (I was surprised, since my earlier experience with JJ wasn't very good). If I had a 0.25 mV cartridge, these are the ones I would use. However, with 0.56mV (Lyra Atlas), the best of my Telefunkens are acceptable, to my ears, and I find them more musical than the JJs.

I am interested in other users' experience in this context. The best Telefunken, ECC803S, seems ca impossible to obtain now. Maybe we should look somewhere else (RCA? Tesla? Mullard? Siemens? Genalex?). I bought some (new production) Psvane, but was not impressed. Yes, I know that the rest of the tubes play a role too, and also, how you combine them. Someone (name escapes me, now) wrote a long post on this, on Audiogon. My general impression, making a long story short, is that the more good NOS, including the power supply tubes, the better the sound. But the first gain stage is clearly the most important. Tube rolling is fun, but you can get slightly crazy, also. I have seen some people (was it M Fremer, recently?) preferring stock (new production) tubes. So it is partly a matter of taste. The Io with stock tubes sounds more "solid state", in my experience.

Hi, I did an IO tube rolling report in 2006 https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/aesthetix-io-sig-tube-rolling-initial-impressions

Interesting that I still use the Sovtek LPS in the first gain stage. You are absolutely correct, no ma what tube you use, the first gain stage in the IO is the most critical for noise abatement.

Albert Porter is linked in my tube review with his listening results of NOS tubes in the IO. I have not seen many others NOS tube reviews with the IO out in the forum world.

 

[audioquest4life]

Audioquest4life
I just saw your post (#61) now. This is interesting. I've never had this experience with Sovtek 12ax7 LPS, but maybe I didn't have the best exemplars, or didn't break them in sufficiently. I haven't had so good experience with EH, either, but I cannot remember now if it was 12ax7 or some other type. What you say about plug, play and forget appeals to me also. So I don't have to be neurotic about turning the Io off when not in use. I've never tried Gold Lion. Mullards in the p-s - what type, where?

The Beck RM-1 tube tester is made by a German enthusiast (Helmut Beck), https://www.beck-elektroakustik.com/
I ordered a custom-made version that tests all the 8 tube types in my system. Reasonably priced for a new product, and support is very good (no affiliation). The RM-1 only tests plate current / emission, but within that limit, it works well, and is easy to use. So if I get a bad tube, it shows in the tester (or blows a fuse in it, in dire cases), rather than destroying something in the Io itself, or in my other tube equipment.

OGH...holy cow, your giving me flashbacks, literally. When I lived in Germany I contacted Beck elektracoustic for the very same tester. He was also going to build me a custom tester...wow, I forgot about Beck until you reminded me. When I returned to the U.S., moving, new house, new job, forgot all about Beck. I was worried about my equipment arriving safely and setting back up. I am going to contact him and ask about his tester for triodes again. i think I have his quote lost in an email from 2011.

In the meantime, since curiosity is eating away at us, I will order Some Gold Lion 12ax7s, a new batch of Sovtek LPS, and some PSvanes to start a new round of experiments. It’s been almost 3 years since I last replicated all of the IO tubes.

The IO power supply tubes are 6 each Mullard low noise and matched 12AX7. The EL34 is new series Electro Harmonix. I had an NOS 6cA7 per Albert Porter, but the supply is drying up. I forget what it was. With these tubes I feel good about keeping an ample supply in reserve and purchasing anytime If needed.

 

[audioquest4life]

Actually, I found some new Gold Lion ECC83/12AX7s sitting on a shelf. I Will test tomorrow.

 

[OGH]

audioquest4life
Thank you for reminding me, yes, it was Albert Porter who wrote the long report.
The Maxipreamp II seems very advanced. It will be interesting to hear, what you think about it.
You are funny - "plug, play and forget" - just buying a Maxipreamp tester, first! But I understand you - we think the same way.
(They said "perfect sound forever" - and look what happened - so now, even tube testers have a new spring season...)
It will be interesting, if the Maxipreamp actually shows the noise level in the 40db demand context of the Io first gain stage.
Or if you will still have to put the tube in the Io itself, to listen.
Thanks for the p-s supply info. I will have to check, cannot remember what is in there.

 

[audioquest4life]

audioquest4life
Thank you for reminding me, yes, it was Albert Porter who wrote the long report.
The Maxipreamp II seems very advanced. It will be interesting to hear, what you think about it.
You are funny - "plug, play and forget" - just buying a Maxipreamp tester, first! But I understand you - we think the same way.
(They said "perfect sound forever" - and look what happened - so now, even tube testers have a new spring season...)
It will be interesting, if the Maxipreamp actually shows the noise level in the 40db demand context of the Io first gain stage.
Or if you will still have to put the tube in the Io itself, to listen.
Thanks for the p-s supply info. I will have to check, cannot remember what is in there.

OGH...LOL It’s been many years since we last chatted. Here is the link To the Maximatcher
https://maximatcher.com/product/maxipreamp-ii/

It also does measure noise and you can hear it by using the two rca jacks to plug into a Preamp or receiver to listen for noise from the tube. That’s a pretty neat feature. Of course, as you stated, the real test will be if the measured and audible output of noise from the tubes being tested on the tester is the same as when installed in the IO. That’s going to to be all morning experiment for next weekend.

 

[oldvinyl]

From my experience, RCA black plate or Telefunken 12AX7 in the V1 and V2 position sound the best (in my system, to my tastes). They seem to be linear and neutral - let the music through with the least coloration. Finding low noise tubes is tricky, many tube sellers simply do not select for this aspect. One thing that some tube vendors do check is microphonics. Low microphony tubes are critical in the Io, especially the first couple positions.

I have found that in order to lower the noise floor and use the Io with inaudible levels of tube rush from the listening position requires:
- AC power filters (that only remove noise and do not restrict power flow)
- shielded umbilical cables (aftermarket)
- cleaning all connectors (something like Kontak since it does not leave any residue)
- cleaning all power contacts
- using the spray electronics cleaner for the umbilical contacts in their connectors
- cleaning the tube pins and sockets (again with Kontak)

And obviously, the higher the cartridge output, the better.

All that cleaning takes several hours and requires taking all the components off their shelves. Next time I do it, I will take photos of the Qtips, pipe cleaners and microfiber cloths to afterwards to show how much oxidation is removed. There have been times I thought I had noisy tubes, but after the cleaning I could no longer hear it.

Using 75 - 80 dB of gain means any and all noise is amplified right along with the signal. Removing the noise source improves things a lot.

 

[Kcin]

From my experience, RCA black plate or Telefunken 12AX7 in the V1 and V2 position sound the best (in my system, to my tastes). They seem to be linear and neutral - let the music through with the least coloration. Finding low noise tubes is tricky, many tube sellers simply do not select for this aspect. One thing that some tube vendors do check is microphonics. Low microphony tubes are critical in the Io, especially the first couple positions.

I have found that in order to lower the noise floor and use the Io with inaudible levels of tube rush from the listening position requires:
- AC power filters (that only remove noise and do not restrict power flow)
- shielded umbilical cables (aftermarket)
- cleaning all connectors (something like Kontak since it does not leave any residue)
- cleaning all power contacts
- using the spray electronics cleaner for the umbilical contacts in their connectors
- cleaning the tube pins and sockets (again with Kontak)

And obviously, the higher the cartridge output, the better.

All that cleaning takes several hours and requires taking all the components off their shelves. Next time I do it, I will take photos of the Qtips, pipe cleaners and microfiber cloths to afterwards to show how much oxidation is removed. There have been times I thought I had noisy tubes, but after the cleaning I could no longer hear it.

Using 75 - 80 dB of gain means any and all noise is amplified right along with the signal. Removing the noise source improves things a lot.

Totally agree,

I do this several times a year including all the RCAs and prongs and receptacles for AC --- power off of course.

I use my own method with multiple tools, cloth types and ingredients. It will take a few days to accomplish.

This tube was cleaned at least 6mos prior to this:


:

 

[audioquest4life]

Totally agree,

I do this several times a year including all the RCAs and prongs and receptacles for AC --- power off of course.

I use my own method with multiple tools, cloth types and ingredients. It will take a few days to accomplish.

This tube was cleaned at least 6mos prior to this:


:View attachment 70237

I was going to ask if one cleans the tubes and sockets when you swap out tubes every few years...but, you answered in your reply. I have never cleaned the tubes or sockets but will do so when I swap out tubes in the near future. I don’t see myself doing a clean every six months or so as I shouldn’t be lifting heavy things anymore due to my back. My wife is already on the hook to help me with the tube swap when I remove the IO from the rack to replace the tubes. That’s all she will tolerate too.

Still, that’s quite a bit of buildup on the tube pins. What do we use to clean the ceramic sockets and how do we prevent liquid from getting inside the tube pin holes? I know ear swabs or gun cleaner swabs (tips) would probably be good to get at the pinholes with a minimum amount of cleaning agent whatever it is. Have to watch YouTube videos. I cannot believe how much dirt was picked up after six months.

 

[dan31]

I need to pull my tubes and clean. Same for my headphone amp as it is all tube as well. Its been at least 3 years. My son just turned 3, how time flies when you are trying to keep up with a little one.

 

[oldvinyl]

That's actually not dirt in the photo, it is oxidation on the pins of the tube. Yikes! My tubes have the same accumulation after six months.

To clean the pins of the larger tubes (6SN7, EL34 or KT66 in my case) I use Q-tips and Flitz paste. Apply the Flitz paste with the Q-tip, then use several more Q-tips to clean it off. I follow up by dipping a clean Q-tip in the Kontak and using that to remove any residual. I have tried Caig's Deoxit but found it did not remove as much oxidation as Flitz. It takes some effort to remove the Deoxit residue. Caig says to leave some on as lubricant, but I found that it will mess up tube sockets over time. If your fingers can manage it, you can also use a microfiber towel to wipe down the pins of the tube after applying the Flitz.

To clean the pins of the 12AX7 and 6922 tubes, I simply dip a clean Q-tip in the Kontak and use it to wipe the pins. If the pins are highly oxidized, they can be carefully cleaned with Flitz on a Q-tip, or stand them up in a puddle of Caig (but be sure to clean the Caig off thoroughly with more Q-tips and Kontak or a spray electronic circuit cleaner).

The Kontak comes with pipe cleaners which I use to clean the tube sockets. Just dip the pipe clean in the Kontak, then insert it into the socket (where the tube pin normally would be). Spin it around to clean effectively. A spray electronic circuit cleaner can also be used, it does not harm the socket.

Kontak can also be used to clean the connections on the back of the Io phonostage. Flitz and a Q-tip can be used to carefully clean the power pins in the IEC connector. Kontak can be used to clean the power cable IEC, Flitz and Kontak can be used to clean the blades of the power cable plug.

The above should be done in a well ventilated room. Keep the lid on the Kontak except when dipping a pipe cleaner or Q-tip in it (it will evaporate rapidly).

Also, the power supply should be left off for 24 hours before removing the covers and cleaning the sockets. Everything should be unplugged.

It is a tedious labor of love (or fastidious obsession). The results are amazing.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Can I outsource this cleaning labor of love to somebody?

 

[Kcin]

That's actually not dirt in the photo, it is oxidation on the pins of the tube. Yikes! My tubes have the same accumulation after six months.

To clean the pins of the larger tubes (6SN7, EL34 or KT66 in my case) I use Q-tips and Flitz paste. Apply the Flitz paste with the Q-tip, then use several more Q-tips to clean it off. I follow up by dipping a clean Q-tip in the Kontak and using that to remove any residual. I have tried Caig's Deoxit but found it did not remove as much oxidation as Flitz. It takes some effort to remove the Deoxit residue. Caig says to leave some on as lubricant, but I found that it will mess up tube sockets over time. If your fingers can manage it, you can also use a microfiber towel to wipe down the pins of the tube after applying the Flitz.

To clean the pins of the 12AX7 and 6922 tubes, I simply dip a clean Q-tip in the Kontak and use it to wipe the pins. If the pins are highly oxidized, they can be carefully cleaned with Flitz on a Q-tip, or stand them up in a puddle of Caig (but be sure to clean the Caig off thoroughly with more Q-tips and Kontak or a spray electronic circuit cleaner).

The Kontak comes with pipe cleaners which I use to clean the tube sockets. Just dip the pipe clean in the Kontak, then insert it into the socket (where the tube pin normally would be). Spin it around to clean effectively. A spray electronic circuit cleaner can also be used, it does not harm the socket.

Kontak can also be used to clean the connections on the back of the Io phonostage. Flitz and a Q-tip can be used to carefully clean the power pins in the IEC connector. Kontak can be used to clean the power cable IEC, Flitz and Kontak can be used to clean the blades of the power cable plug.

The above should be done in a well ventilated room. Keep the lid on the Kontak except when dipping a pipe cleaner or Q-tip in it (it will evaporate rapidly).

Also, the power supply should be left off for 24 hours before removing the covers and cleaning the sockets. Everything should be unplugged.

It is a tedious labor of love (or fastidious obsession). The results are amazing.

Very little deoxit required - almost nothing. I found a far more effective method than flitz for tube pins. Flitz is good for power cord blades if they have been neglected.

Anyway you look at it .... it still is a ton of work. I was just talking to someone tonight that took this advice this weekend and they were floored by just doing their power cords.

 

[audioquest4life]

Can someone please link the specific product numbers or name for Deoxit, Flitz, and Kontak? looking at the various versions and I want to be sure I get the right ones. Thank you.

 

[oldvinyl]

Caig Deoxit
https://caig.com/product/deoxit-d100l-2c/
You can use any of the packages with their various brushes. As previously stated, I only use it for a longer soak on oxidized pins and then use Kontak to remove it. Deoxit is oily and Caig recommends leaving a thin film for protection. My experience is that the residual will build up and clog tube sockets. As Kcin mention, it needs to be used sparingly. My guess is that I was using too much.

Flitz
https://www.flitz.com/flitz-polish-paste/
https://www.flitz.com/flitz-polish-liquid/
Either paste or liquid. The liquid version is a little easier to use with a Q-tip.

Kontak
http://www.kontakaudio.com/
This one is the most expensive of the three. If the pins or connectors are otherwise clean (no oxidation crud or discoloration) then this one step may suffice. It takes about a while bottle to clean an Io with 2 power supplies - all tubes, sockets, connectors and plugs.

CRC spray
https://www.crcindustries.com/products/qd-174-electronic-cleaner-11-wt-oz-05103.html
I use this one on the umbilical pins and connectors. Also a good alternative for cleaning tube sockets. It is also effective for removing residual Deoxit (if you want to remove it).

There are certainly other cleaners that work just as well. Please post and let us know.

If you try it - please let us know your results.

Also - be careful seating the 12AX7 and 6922 pins - the pins can bend.