Aesthetix Io Users Group

[OGH]

Interesting. I do indeed use efficient 16 ohm Audiokinesis speakers, with my Atma MA1 amps. This made a big positive difference, from earlier 8 ohm speakers. The amps came into their own. My 4 ohms did not make it at all, so I sold them (Dynaudio Consequence). I think you can come 95 percent of the way with resistors, without voluime controls, although I am no expert on this.

 

[OGH]

I bought a standard 1 power version of Io made in 2002, second hand in 2004. Then, for several years, I used it direct into the Krell FPB600 amp, with 4 ohm Dynaudio Consequence speakers. I didn't find a preamp that improved the signal (did not bother, did not test much). I think it was only after I got the Atma MA1 amps that I really tested - Io direct to amp vs through a preamp. Not sure about this. But my main conclusion was clear: to sound its best, the Io should be run into a top level preamp. I think this applies to my former solution (Krell, Dynaudio) as well as my current system (MA-1, Audiokinesis), but I am not sure about this. Hard to do A-B testing, since I've sold the Krell and Dynaudio speakers.

 

[OGH]

Some new testing confirms the results above. Even with double DSD,. the Io sounds best direct - analog only. However the digital recordings sound better with a little more volume (less flat) and with more hours on the Teac NT-505. The gap is still wide, but maybe narrowing. I wonder why I hear a gap at all. Especially since the LP is mastered from 24 96 pcm. The LP is just more "there", played back directly, than the recording.

 

[oldvinyl]

I only use the Io direct to my amps, that's why I got the version with volume controls. The Io with volume controls is a phono stage combined with a line stage. In fact, my Io has a separate additional input for a line level device such as a CD player. Alas, I still don't use it since I prefer CD player direct to amps and Io direct to amps. That seems to preserve the immediacy, transparency and clarity.

Have not tried recording my albums, I prefer listening to vinyl as vinyl on the turntable.

 

[Jeffy]

Some new testing confirms the results above. Even with double DSD,. the Io sounds best direct - analog only. However the digital recordings sound better with a little more volume (less flat) and with more hours on the Teac NT-505. The gap is still wide, but maybe narrowing. I wonder why I hear a gap at all. Especially since the LP is mastered from 24 96 pcm. The LP is just more "there", played back directly, than the recording.

You need a much better dac than the Teac if you are comparing to the Aesthetix.

 

[Chop]

Morning everyone

Can I bring this fairly esoteric thread down to earth for a moment?
I dont have an Aesthetix phono stage, I run an older Tron Nucleus phono with closely matched Telefunken ECC83's in. I recognise the phono stage is the weak part of my system. The Io Eclipse interests me a lot as I know someone who has one and swears by it. I use a Transfiguration Proteus.

I can see how well regarded this phono stage is, but my question for this thread is:what in your opinion makes it so special? Surely this phono stage is for masochists only? I understand it has 16 valves in it & runs hot, and takes a while to warm up. But if you leave it on all the time you have what, just 2 or 3 years of valve life: Expensive to revalve all at once. Noise drives me nuts & this must be a pig to keep quiet, no?

Thanks
Chop

 

[Ron Resnick]

1) The Io Eclipse with dual power supplies is the result of an all-out, no expense spared and no complication spared and no space spared effort by a mad analog audio scientist who sought to create the best sounding device of its type ever made. So, for starters, we love that Jim White approached the design with this ultimate goal in mind.

2) You do not have to change the tubes from the stock tubes the boxes come with. I'm not a masochist, and I have no interest in never-ending tube rolling. While I have purchased an inventory of various NOS tubes I did this to preserve my ability to tube roll in the future, should I choose to do so, and not out of any specific desire to tube roll as an on-going sub-hobby. When I set the boxes up, I may leave in the stock tubes forever.

3) I had my first Io for 18 years, and I turned it on only in anticipation of using it. I never left it on all the time.

4) The Io is the best sounding phono stage I have ever heard. In general I like the sound of tube electronics. I am somebody who believes in the proverb that "there should be a tube somewhere in the system." Also, I have never heard a system containing an Io of which I did not like the sound.

5) I prefer the sound of the Io even at the expense of, or at least at the risk of, a noise level exceeding the noise level of a solid-state phono stage.

 

[Chop]

Hi Ron

OK, thats really helpful. I too am committed to tube electronics.
I agree all tube phono stages will be noisier than solid state: I suppose I'm wondering how the IO with 16 valves avoids being significantly noisier than a more...conventional valve phono stage. I think what you are basically saying about the noise is that its not obtrusive in your set up and its worth putting up with.

Your point 2 is very helpful, much appreciated. I note that you don't have to roll the tubes in the Aesthetix phono. In your experience though did rolling to NOS make much difference?
...and how long do you find it takes to warm up to optimum from cold?

As an aside, I too have a good stock of tubes - I used to live 3 miles from the Mullard factory in Mitcham Surrey, back in the day when you could buy E83CC's for a couple of £'s!

Thanks for taking the time to put together such a detailed reply, appreciate it.

 

[bonzo75]

Ron I don't see your aversion to tube rolling. Every component that can be optimised has to be. If you get a turntable, Why do you research different carts to see which fits best in your analog chain.

Same with certain tube components. Aesthetix it is just tougher to find the right match as compared to say, Allnic, where you need to mainly roll only one valve, the rectifier. On almost 100 percent accounts, rolling tube on aesthetix or Allnic brings a high upgrade, and imo it is silly to decide not to, then you might as well shift to a phono that does not require tube rolling, or minimal at that.

The fact that it can sound alright without rolling is fine for an average system, not the system you are planning to with the effort, expense (and wait) that you have put in. If you can't be bothered, just adopt someone else's valve recommendations and change once a year

 

[Chop]

Thanks for the perspective Bonzo

 

[OGH]

I agree with Ron's points, above. I do prefer NOS tubes, especially Telefunken in the Io gain stages, but I don't worry about it, the stock tube set from Aesthetix isn't "bad" even though it is possible to improve the performance. I wonder why I have stayed with the Io for 16 years...all the tubes, the big boxes, the heat...simple answer: the sound.
Jeffy - you are right, I would not expect the Teac NT-505 DAC (or the ADC on my Tascam DA-3000 recorder) to be up to the sonic level of the Io. What DAC would that be? The point for me, is a kind of "portable Io". I can play the file in my small Fiio X3 DAP. In my cottage system. And in the main system, with a far lower cost per hour of playback, than with the Atlas -> Io direct. For now, the conclusion is "good enough" for my needs. My vinyl recordings sound better than streaming. The Teac seems to improve a bit with break-in.

 

[Tango]

I agree all tube phono stages will be noisier than solid state: .

May be specific to Asthetix but not necessary to other good tube phono really. For example, EMT phono and Ayon phono are silent or at least as quiet as the CH P1.

 

[Chop]

I agree with Ron's points, above. I do prefer NOS tubes, especially Telefunken in the Io gain stages, but I don't worry about it, the stock tube set from Aesthetix isn't "bad" even though it is possible to improve the performance. I wonder why I have stayed with the Io for 16 years...all the tubes, the big boxes, the heat...simple answer: the sound.

Yes OK. What people seem to be saying is that it really is THAT good. There does seem to be a lot of very long term users in a hobby where people often jump between components a lot. Thanks for all the input guys! Must find a vendor in the UK...

 

[audioquest4life]

I thought either the partial or full Eclipse IO versions had lower noise as a result of the upgrades in internal Electonics. I do know the first tube stage is most critical to obtain lower tube rush by and one must choose low noise tubes. In fact, after I swapped a low noise and tested Sovtek 12AX7LPS in that position the noise floor was lowered considerably.

I am not sure if Aesthetix tests for lower noise or musicality over the Tube noise for the IO...as others have stated, it’s one of the best sounding phono stages I have heard.

 

[Lagonda]

May be specific to Asthetix but not necessary to other good tube phono really. For example, EMT phono and Ayon phono are silent or at least as quiet as the CH P1.

It should be quieter it uses internal SUT.

 

[bonzo75]

Generally tube phonos like IO and Allnic by changing tubes and different SUTs as well, once it is really good, there is a lot of customisation possible. So if you know your phono well and have experimented, it could be excellent. But stock will likely fall below par

 

[Lagonda]

Morning everyone

Can I bring this fairly esoteric thread down to earth for a moment?
I dont have an Aesthetix phono stage, I run an older Tron Nucleus phono with closely matched Telefunken ECC83's in. I recognise the phono stage is the weak part of my system. The Io Eclipse interests me a lot as I know someone who has one and swears by it. I use a Transfiguration Proteus.

I can see how well regarded this phono stage is, but my question for this thread is:what in your opinion makes it so special? Surely this phono stage is for masochists only? I understand it has 16 valves in it & runs hot, and takes a while to warm up. But if you leave it on all the time you have what, just 2 or 3 years of valve life: Expensive to revalve all at once. Noise drives me nuts & this must be a pig to keep quiet, no?

Thanks
Chop

Your tube count is of by 16 tubes, the Io with 2 power supplies uses 32 valves, or 24 with just one supply ! Yes it is a little noisy with the wrong cart, but it is the best tube phono i have heard, the best qualities of tubes combined with the dynamics and bass capabilities of the best SS. A Io Eclipse with 2 power supplies will startle you with its effortless details, musicality, bass capabilities and spooky” in the room” holographic presence. If the rest of the system is up to it When i first started using mine, i was again and again hearing things in well known recordings, i had never heard before, presented in an effortless way that is part of the magic. It’s the same feeling you get when you go from small to large amps, and from stereo to mono amps, unlimited reserves !

 

[Chop]

Lagonda THAT is a very helpful summary, thank you!

 

[Tango]

Lagonda THAT is a very helpful summary, thank you!

He was smoking.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron I don't see your aversion to tube rolling. Every component that can be optimised has to be. If you get a turntable, Why do you research different carts to see which fits best in your analog chain.

Same with certain tube components. Aesthetix it is just tougher to find the right match as compared to say, Allnic, where you need to mainly roll only one valve, the rectifier. On almost 100 percent accounts, rolling tube on aesthetix or Allnic brings a high upgrade, and imo it is silly to decide not to, then you might as well shift to a phono that does not require tube rolling, or minimal at that.

The fact that it can sound alright without rolling is fine for an average system, not the system you are planning to with the effort, expense (and wait) that you have put in. If you can't be bothered, just adopt someone else's valve recommendations and change once a year

I studied the Io tube rolling reports and recommendations of Albert Porter and Greg Beron and others years ago, and I purchased an inventory of a variety of NOS tubes accordingly. I don't have an aversion to tube rolling; I just do not want to make it a requirement.

Hatching that whole system at once is going to be way more than enough of a project at conception. Initially each component is going to be something of a variable. I don't want to manufacture variables within each component at the beginning. I may get around to tube rolling a year or so down the road after the initial hatching.

Besides, I thought we resolved this already: when you visit you are going to tube roll for food.