Aesthetix Io Users Group
- Thread starter audioquest4life
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I’m using an older Koetsu black goldline. I used it before I got my lyra. It has about 600 hours in it so plenty of life. It’s my back up cartridge and I must say I dig the change.
I think about a platinum model but I’m happy with what I have for now.
My Spectral preamp and amp are boxed up. Speakers are in storage. Headphone only for a while. I have the Io direct to an OTL headphone amp so it’s a different perspective than speakers. I need to work on some adjustment of the cart. Lower VTA and perhaps adjust the loading after I get a few days/weeks.
I think about a platinum model but I’m happy with what I have for now.
My Spectral preamp and amp are boxed up. Speakers are in storage. Headphone only for a while. I have the Io direct to an OTL headphone amp so it’s a different perspective than speakers. I need to work on some adjustment of the cart. Lower VTA and perhaps adjust the loading after I get a few days/weeks.
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What is the current practical thinking on using a .24mv cartridge with the Io?
- go for it!
- it requires careful selection of low noise and low microphony tubes, especially in the V1 and V2 first gain stage
1) Does an output that low put a lot of pressure on the Io in terms of staying noise-free with those tubes cranking at high gain?
- once the gain is set, then the amplification of the cartridge signal and any noise is set
- the Io power supplies are not under any burden with higher gain settings (they are way designed to meet these margins)
- configuring for high gain is not adding any "pressure" - it just magnifies any tube or circuit noise
2) Will an output that low sacrifice some drive or dynamics or energy versus a .45mV output cartridge?
- actually, that is the whole advantage of a well designed low output moving coil cartridge
- there is less mass and inertia on the cantilever, there is lower inductance since there are less windings
- moving coil with lower inductance can be easier to match with a phono stage
- the bandwidth of the tubes in the gain stage far exceed their use in audio, what would be more critical is the slew rate of the phono stage (its ability to follow the speed of the rise and fall of the input signal). This is where high quality capacitors pay off.
What has been your practical experience on these issues at these cartridge output levels?
- I used the Io for years with a Benz Micro LP(S)
- currently, I have a Clearaudio Goldfinger
- there is less audible noise with the Goldfinger (due to its higher output, but also due to some Io power supply upgrades) since I don't have to run the output level as high (volume controls are set a little lower)
Sort of ... the Io output will still be amplified in the line stage. Any noise from the Io will then be amplified by the preamp.
For the combo to work optimally, be sure to set the Io gain low enough such that the preamp actually needs to amplify the Io's output. If the Io gain is too high, then the preamp will actually attenuate the signal. For an Io with volume controls, the sweet spot is around 11 am or noon on the volume controls. Any higher and the external preamp will need to start attenuating the Io's output.
The higher output cartridge will lower the perceived noise (tube rush usually) since the volume can be set a little lower. It will not really affect dynamics or energy - low output moving coil cartridges usually shine in these areas.
My experience is somewhat different. I’ve found that using Io at any setting lower than the maximum gain setting of 80 dB negatively affects not only dynamics, but the tone of the presentation. It happened with both my ZYX Universe II and Opus 1 carts.
How would you describe the sonic differences between these two cartridges? What were your comparative impressions of likes and dislikes between these two?
Thank you!
No, most probably not IMHO. Cause both Benz Micro and ZYX measure output level at 3.54cm/sec. others measure at standard which is 5cm/sec. According to my personal experience both ZYX and Benz Micro outputs more than what’s specified by the manufacturer. In reality ZYX should be about 0.34mV instead of 0.24 and Benz Micro Ruby 2 should be about 0.42mV instead of 0.3. Actually Ruby 2 could output more than 0.42mV cause usually Benz cartridges outputs higher than specified besides being measured at a lower speed. IMHO there won’t be huge difference or any difference between Ruby 2 and Air Tight Opus 1 in terms of output voltage.
Ron, this is my post from another thread:
“As I said in the previous post, ZYX is much brighter (less body) compared to Opus. This is the biggest difference in my setup, which you hear from the very first record. Then you hear the bass, it is so much better, deeper and more defined. As a result of all the above, the overall presentation is very pleasant, I would say it is mellow, but in a good way, not at the expense of resolution.
As for similarities, well, they are both MC cartridges
and are quite resolving.”
Agreed - my experience is based on Io with volume controls. The volume control version does not have jumpers for gain setting.
Does the Io gain setting really affects the amount of noise that we hear from the tubes? What I mean is that if we lower the gain in Io, we then have to put more gain with a preamp that follows Io in order to get to the same level of the output. So, any tube rush that Io generates is further amplified by a preamp, it is amplified to the higher extent if we lower the gain in Io or to lesser extent if we increase the gain in Io. But the end amount of the gain applied to the tubes is the same or not?
Does gain affect noise?
-- yes, there are three gain stages. Each gain stage amplifies (magnifies) its input signal. The input signal can be from the cartridge (music) or from the circuit components (noise). Tubes are known for "tube rush" or a soft shhhhhhhh sound.
-- the Io has up to 80 dB gain, which is a multiplication factor of 10,000. Or 0.2 millivolts cartridge output ==> 2.0 volts line level output.
-- any tube noise from the first stage can be amplified in the first stage, then again in the 2nd and 3rd stage. Noise in the 2nd stage (from 1st and 2nd stage) can be amplified in the 2nd stage, then again in the 3rd stage. The 3rd gain stage can also add noise.
Lower Io gain, increase preamp gain:
-- yes, the Io contribution to any noise will be lower since any the Io's gain applied to its noise is lower.
-- that is then amplified by the linestage. Depending on the linestage, this can decrease the overall noise level.
The amount of gain:
-- gain with external preamp = (Io gain) + (linestage preamp gain). The gain is applied to the noise as well as the signal.
CAVEAT: with an updated Io, factory selected tubes, good grounding, application of all the hints in this thread ..... we are only talking tube rush that is barely audible from the listening position. In my system, with the Io volume cranked up to full body contact Mahlerian levels, this is barely audible with 94 dB sensitivity speakers. It does not interfere with listening. Care must be taken when selecting tubes to help reduce the impact of noise, especially in the V1/V2 position.
My experience - Io volume vs preamp volume:
Io volume controls at 2 o'clock to 2:30. Around 60 db gain.
I adjust preamp volume from this, and usually listen with the preamp volume around 11 or 11:30.
Since my preamp is very silent, noise from the Io tubes is lowered in this way.
Yet it is also that my system sounds best that way, with the relatively robust output of the Atlas cart (0.56 mv). Max volume from the Io - 82.5 db - feels like too much.
Being able to mix and match relative volume feels like a luxury. I listen for clarity and tonal timbre.
I don't know the exact amounts of gain, but it is maybe 67 percent from the Io, 33 from the preamp. Or 75 / 25. It depends on the tubes (and the cartridge, etc), but is quite easy to fine-tune, set (and forget). Once I've found the best setting, I rarely touch the Io volume controls - only the preamp volume. An extra plus, for me, is that the preamp also has a remote volume control.
Io volume controls at 2 o'clock to 2:30. Around 60 db gain.
I adjust preamp volume from this, and usually listen with the preamp volume around 11 or 11:30.
Since my preamp is very silent, noise from the Io tubes is lowered in this way.
Yet it is also that my system sounds best that way, with the relatively robust output of the Atlas cart (0.56 mv). Max volume from the Io - 82.5 db - feels like too much.
Being able to mix and match relative volume feels like a luxury. I listen for clarity and tonal timbre.
I don't know the exact amounts of gain, but it is maybe 67 percent from the Io, 33 from the preamp. Or 75 / 25. It depends on the tubes (and the cartridge, etc), but is quite easy to fine-tune, set (and forget). Once I've found the best setting, I rarely touch the Io volume controls - only the preamp volume. An extra plus, for me, is that the preamp also has a remote volume control.
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It is actually quite amazing that I've not tested the Audiotiailor Jade OTL headphone amp direct from the Io, before. Or maybe just for a few minutes. But - they were in two different systems, and my main system is for speaker listening, not headphones.
Yet this OTL headphone amp was part of the reason I switched from heavy solid-state (Krell Fpb600) to OTL tube amps (MA-1), ten years ago, in my main system. I had never heard big OTL amp, - but I heard what I heard in the little headphone amp, was amazed, and took the risk. I bought the MA-1s second hand, never having heard them, on Audiogon. No looking back.
I can test this more, if I bring the OTL headphone amp back from my cottage system, to my main system. I then have the option of 1) Io direct to the OTL, listening from the OTL outputs; compared to 2) other headphone outputs, in my system, like the Teac NT-505.
The Jade OTL sounds best with balanced headphones. I know this from running Sennheiser 600 balanced, with a special cable. However I was never too keen on the 600 headphones, and switched to AKG 701 with a more open and airy sound. Later, I have changed to Audioquest Nightowl - best so far, in my system, even if conventional (non-balanced) connected. I also have in ear monitors, like the Fiio EX1. The Owls are broadly harmonic and quite forgiving, while the Ex1 is sharp and inquisitive. Salt and pepper.
Yet this OTL headphone amp was part of the reason I switched from heavy solid-state (Krell Fpb600) to OTL tube amps (MA-1), ten years ago, in my main system. I had never heard big OTL amp, - but I heard what I heard in the little headphone amp, was amazed, and took the risk. I bought the MA-1s second hand, never having heard them, on Audiogon. No looking back.
I can test this more, if I bring the OTL headphone amp back from my cottage system, to my main system. I then have the option of 1) Io direct to the OTL, listening from the OTL outputs; compared to 2) other headphone outputs, in my system, like the Teac NT-505.
The Jade OTL sounds best with balanced headphones. I know this from running Sennheiser 600 balanced, with a special cable. However I was never too keen on the 600 headphones, and switched to AKG 701 with a more open and airy sound. Later, I have changed to Audioquest Nightowl - best so far, in my system, even if conventional (non-balanced) connected. I also have in ear monitors, like the Fiio EX1. The Owls are broadly harmonic and quite forgiving, while the Ex1 is sharp and inquisitive. Salt and pepper.
What happens, if you run the output from the Io to a Y type connector - to an amp, but also to a headphone preamp? Would this degrade the sound?
I have used this type of Y connector from my preamp, to two amps (MA-1 for front speakers, and a Pioneer amp to effect speakers) without notable degradation of the sound.
Not sure about the Io however.
But it seems that the Io output is fairly strong and robust, just like my preamp output - so this won't do much harm.
If so, it is an easy way to include a headphone amp into you main system. For the preamp out, I use Klotz XLR Y adapters, ca 60 usd (2016).
I have used this type of Y connector from my preamp, to two amps (MA-1 for front speakers, and a Pioneer amp to effect speakers) without notable degradation of the sound.
Not sure about the Io however.
But it seems that the Io output is fairly strong and robust, just like my preamp output - so this won't do much harm.
If so, it is an easy way to include a headphone amp into you main system. For the preamp out, I use Klotz XLR Y adapters, ca 60 usd (2016).
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