Aesthetix Io Users Group

[dan31]

Hello OGH, I was running the Io direct to two destinations. One a SS preamp and the other the headphone amp. I run short interconnects and never noticed any difference between connecting both vs only one.
Last night I had my Io rca connected to my OTL headphone and and the xlr to a TCA HPA-1 headphone amp balanced input. Fantastic sound quality! You really hear your source without any room in the way. Both of my headphone amps have a 50K ohm input so they are a very easy load on the Io. I have AKG 701’s but prefer the Senn HD600/650 for sound and comfort. I hope you get the chance to listen directly to the Io via your headphone. It sounds like you have nice equipment.

 

[OGH]

Hi Dan - very interesting! We are exploring new ground here. With a little extra cost, a good Y link, we can maybe extend the use of the Io in a very good way. To drive the main system amp PLUS a headphone amp.

But maybe the Y link is not needed? Can we just connect the rca out to the headphone amp, and the xlr out to the main amp (or vice versa)? I thought this was poor practice, we should not use both Io outputs at once - so I never tried it, but you are saying, it works fine?

I imagine that the headphone output from my OTL amp will sound great, driven direct from the Io, and look forward to testing, when I have the chance, in a few weeks time.

 

[dan31]

I noticed no difference using both outputs at once. The Io has ample power supply. The Io can drive long interconnects and amps directly so it has a robust output. Given I am using short interconnects and the headphone inputs are 50K ohm, it’s a breeze for the Io. I have been running both RCA and XLR for years.

 

[OGH]

Great, thanks for the info, I will try also.

 

[Kcin]

I noticed no difference using both outputs at once. The Io has ample power supply. The Io can drive long interconnects and amps directly so it has a robust output. Given I am using short interconnects and the headphone inputs are 50K ohm, it’s a breeze for the Io. I have been running both RCA and XLR for years.

I bi-amp and use the Io this way 100hz up for my line array and down below for my sub amp. No issues at all!

 

[oldvinyl]

Hi Dan - very interesting! We are exploring new ground here. With a little extra cost, a good Y link, we can maybe extend the use of the Io in a very good way. To drive the main system amp PLUS a headphone amp.

But maybe the Y link is not needed? Can we just connect the rca out to the headphone amp, and the xlr out to the main amp (or vice versa)? I thought this was poor practice, we should not use both Io outputs at once - so I never tried it, but you are saying, it works fine?

I imagine that the headphone output from my OTL amp will sound great, driven direct from the Io, and look forward to testing, when I have the chance, in a few weeks time.

I have used both Io RCA or both XLRs at the same time. This is for bi-amping my speakers. No affect on sound quality that I can hear. Keep in mind that it is a standard configuration for the Io to have 2 sets of outputs. The factory can add a second XLR output too (which I have).

As for using a Y connector .... whether it affects sound quality depends. There will be connector insertion loss (small), an extra 2 sets of cables. Also, this would be using 1 Io output to drive a preamps - which is different than having 2 outputs from the Io. The Y connector sees the parallel impedance of the preamp inputs. If both preamps are 100 kohm, then the Io would see a 50 kohm load. This can drop the output level and affect the sound. In the end, try it. If it sounds good to you ..... then enjoy.

 

[OGH]

Thanks, all, for good advice! It is rather amazing, having owned the Io for many years, that I've not tried more of the output flexibility. It appears that the XLR and SE outputs can be used at the same time with practically zero impact on the sound, and that the use of a Y link is probably acceptable also.

The reason is simply that I have not had much use for a second amp in my main system. There, I listen to the speakers, not headphones, and so the Jade OTL headphone amp has paid its dues in my office system (and now, in my cottage system - sounding great, as always), not in my main rig.

This is also, since I have the utmost respect for the Io as a "purist" device (if in doubt, don't do it). So I've stayed with using just one of the Io outputs, at a time. I will certainly re-test this, when I get the chance.

In my system, I cannot (easily) split the signal between the compression drivers and the woofers in my main system Dream Maker speakers. There is only one input. It might create even better sound. I have experience, splitting the signal (using Y links for XLR) to 1) these front speakers and 2) effect speakers. Not much sound detoriation. The main problem., for me, is that the effect speakers are driven by a "fairly good" solid state amp, modded to improve performance - while the front speakers are driven by "very good" OTL amps.

I can hear the difference - even if this two-pair speaker system is otherwise very good. It is a bit similar to my sub experience - after trying a lot of subs, including a pair of RELs, and finally a Velodyne DD-18, I found that my front speakers sound better alone. More pure. even if some bass is missing. I was amazed by the DD18 - at first. Then, I noted the s-state signature of the sound. Not for me.

 

[Ron Resnick]

From Lagonda:

Ha Ha, my Io actually broke i while ago Ked, i have just been too disgusted with its reliability to do anything about it yet.


From Audiophile Bill:

Hey - this is alas the problem with the Io. On its day it is incredible sounding. But its day are few and never far from the next issue. I know multiple folks with same gripe.

—————————————————————————————

Why do Io owners in Europe seem to have more problems per capita than do Io owners in the US? Is this observation spurious, or do you also have the sense that we seem anecdotally to hear about more problems with Ios in Europe then we hear about problems with Ios in the US?

 

[Lagonda]

From Lagonda:

Ha Ha, my Io actually broke i while ago Ked, i have just been too disgusted with its reliability to do anything about it yet.


From Audiophile Bill:

Hey - this is alas the problem with the Io. On its day it is incredible sounding. But its day are few and never far from the next issue. I know multiple folks with same gripe.

—————————————————————————————

Why do Io owners in Europe seem to have more problems per capita than do Io owners in the US? Is this observation spurious, or do you also have the sense that we seem anecdotally to hear about more problems with Ios in Europe then we hear about problems with Ios in the US?

I do believe a lot of Io owners quietly sell their Io, without rocking the boat too much before its gone. Bill , Mike and Jürgen never said anything when they sold their Io's. In Europe there is the added expense of expensive shipping and long waiting time for repair to consider. Maybe we just complain more, we are use to our gear being more reliable !

 

[OGH]

Ron - I don't think there are more problems per capita. Just that the problems become bigger here in Europe, due to expensive shipment, plus longer waiting times. I am able to get other US equipment like Atma-sphere MA-1 repaired here in Norway, but not the Io. It seems to be that Aesthetix keeps the schematics locked down.

 

[bonzo75]

To start with I don't understand why Europeans buy American products unless there is a massive financial bargain and local service. Europe has amazing speakers, amps, analog and digital.

My guess is that people don't read Italian or German etc reviews, the common language is English, so most of the reading is done of American reviews and forums. Therefore, in the absence of listening, American products are bought due to greater exposure to online feedback. It is fine if service is local and price/resale is good but otherwise Europeans should avoid American products.

 

[mtemur]

My guess is that people don't read Italian or German etc reviews, the common language is English, so most of the reading is done of American reviews and forums. Therefore, in the absence of listening, American products are bought due to greater exposure to online feedback.

Good point, otherwise how can you explain the success of Audio Research? I pick Jadis over AR any time of the day.

Maybe people are impressed by size or weight or muscle I don’t know but I do remember and laugh my old times using 1200 watts Mark Levinson amp envying Boulder. By the way not all European stuff is great. For example I pick smooth sounding Mark Levinsons over harsh Gryphons or unemotional old Goldmunds. But none of them were as bad as Halcro dm68 which is neither European nor American.

 

[OGH]

Bonzo75 - I bought the Io mk2 second hand for ca 4000$ back in 2004. I live in Europe. I have a German preamp and turntable, an English tonearm, a Japanese cartridge, and so on - as well as a US-made phono stage, amp, and speakers. Buying stuff based on the country of origin is just silly. I do admit that I have a weak spot for 'decent' US firms. Compared to all the sharks in the water. Yet this goes for decent firms regardless of country. My favorite OTL headphone amp was made in a garage in Hong Kong.

Is there any hard evidence that the Io breaks down, more than usual for this type of product?

 

[Kcin]

I know 3 users locally, that have Io's none have issues- yet this is hardly a valid sample size. The only issue I have ever had was self-inflicted with tube rolling.

I live in the city of our national service provider for Aesthetix. Turnaround is a week on anything- he is excellent. Not everyone is that fortunate.

The only thing I can think of is "if" the power transformers for EU are not as robust as NA type.. Otherwise they are identical and may in fact use the same transformer with series connected primary. Tubes causing problems is always a crapshoot so that is possible wherever you live.


Funny I think many EU products are more thoughtful and built to a better aesthetic than NA types- I may avoid them because of poor distribution, added distributor costs or no representation. The grass is always greener.

In the end I always found Aesthetix very approachable for questions or advice- Especially when I elected to execute the Eclipse mod. JW was a real gentleman.

The last thing that I will mention is that I am never surprised at how little a distributor or dealer may know about a product they represent. Many times that product may only pass by them several times a year - if that - when it is a statement piece. Good manufacturer support is always nice in such cases even though that's what distributors and dealers are for.

 

[bonzo75]

Bonzo75 - I bought the Io mk2 second hand for ca 4000$ back in 2004. I live in Europe. I have a German preamp and turntable, an English tonearm, a Japanese cartridge, and so on - as well as a US-made phono stage, amp, and speakers. Buying stuff based on the country of origin is just silly. I do admit that I have a weak spot for 'decent' US firms. Compared to all the sharks in the water. Yet this goes for decent firms regardless of country. My favorite OTL headphone amp was made in a garage in Hong Kong.

Is there any hard evidence that the Io breaks down, more than usual for this type of product?

I didn't say buy based on country of origin. I said avoid on country of origin due to service and import costs. There is a difference.

You might have bought stuff from other places but you should source stuff that is equally good if not better AND is locally serviceable. That is what I said. This is all available in Europe for Europeans. If you bought an US product that is tougher to service it is because you didn't do your research enough and got taken in by online reading.

If your country has a local technician for an American product and it is being sold at local prices it is fine. 4000 is a good deal.

Import costs usually make things higher. I remember Luxman goods were way cheaper in Asia compared to EU and much more expensive in the US. Europeans could buy used from HK as same voltage

 

[OGH]

bonzo75 - point taken.

 

[OGH]

Some testing time. Testing Io output to the small Audiotailor Jade OTL amp with Audioquest Nightowl headphones.

Like you folks said, I notice no obvious detoriation of sound when Io is connected to both the headphone amp (rca) and my main amps (xlr). Works fine. Very interesting to compare the sound from a good headphone system to the sound from the speakers.

Test 1. Yes: Tales from topographic oceans, original 2xLP. I have listened to this a lot this summer, both the original (which I slightly prefer, better timbre, atmosphere) and the Steven Wilson remix (more clarity).

Listening through the Jade and Nightowl, I was at first somewhat underwhelmed. No miracle, compared to what I hear in my main system (which is also OTL / tubes). In a sense, this is good news – my main system is doing OK. Listening some more to the headphones, I note great timbre. And not much ‘mud’, which the original mix is supposed to have. I don’t hear much of that in the main system either, but somehow it translates even more clearly into timbre and tonal quality with the headphones.

So the result of test 1 is: promising.

Test 2. Rosalia: Motomani, just bought on vinyl. On the basis of Qobuz streaming – it sounds good there. But better on vinyl, through the Io. More «here». Vocal. Midtone. Ambience. So what happens when I switch to headphones? It sounds even better, in some ways, more fresh, «here», lively.
I must test this more. Maybe some of this is what happens anyway, when you compare speakers to headphones (apples and pears), and not a sign that my main speakers need an upgrade.

Anyway, thanks for a tip that I haven’t tried out before, and like I said – very interesting.

 

[OGH]

bonzo75 writes: you didn't do your research enough and got taken in by online reading.

Do you know anyone who actually bought the Io on this basis? It has nothing to do with my case. I bought the Io used, when it had an OK importer here in Norway, yet later there were changes, that I could not foresee. I bought it to "tame" my massive, somewhat over-eager Krell FPB600 amp - and it succeeded very well.

And like I said, no errors for ca 9 years (except a few tube changes). In 2013 problems appeared, yet they were solved here in Norway. Later, it turned out that I had several failures connected to the volume controls, requiring a larger repair at the factory. The shipment was costly and I waited several months, but Aesthetix used many hours diagnosing the errors and were very reasonable regarding the cost for the total repair. It turned out that it needed two new volume controls, as well as other parts. It may be that Aesthetix could have mailed advice and schematics to someone over here, but I am not sure of this, since it was a complex repair. Some local repair folks told me that they wanted the schematics but A did not send them.

One point from this story. If you send the Io to the factory for upgrade or repair, ask them to check the Io as a whole for service needs. I shipped to the factory for partial eclipse upgrade in 2012, but soon after, problems appeared, and I had to ship it again for the full repair in 2017. Maybe it could have been avoided, with a better check in 2012.

In my case, problems first appeared with scratch noises using the right volume, becoming obvious a year or two after it got back from the factory upgrade. Next, the balance was off, or other problems - maybe caused by cracked solder in the volume. It was fixed by replacing a part or three (in Norway). Then, the scratch noise became worse, and one channel dead, whatever I did. After many months with a local repair guy, who could not fix it, I shipped it to the factory.

Meanwhile - this became a long wait period - I bought the ASR mini basis mk2 , just to be able to play LPs. This did the job very well, for the price (500 usd, second hand). It actually has some of the same sound philosophy as the Io, to my ears. Yet I never forget the day Io came back - working trouble-free. It viped the floor. Far above the ASR. The Io remains a top spot in my sound chain, clearly contributing to best sound further down in the chain. Thats why I keep it.

 

[bonzo75]

bonzo75 writes: you didn't do your research enough and got taken in by online reading.

Do you know anyone who actually bought the Io on this basis? It has nothing to do with my case. I bought the Io used, when it had an OK importer here in Norway, yet later there were changes, that I could not foresee. I bought it to "tame" my massive, somewhat over-eager Krell FPB600 amp - and it succeeded very well. And like I said, no errors for ca 9 years (except a few tube changes). In 2013 problems appeared, yet they were solved here in Norway. Later, it turned out that I had several failures connected to the volume controls, requiring a larger repair at the factory. The shipment was costly and I waited several months, but Aesthetix used many hours diagnosing the errors and were very reasonable regarding the cost for the total repair. It turned out that it needed two new volume controls, as well as other parts. It may be that Aesthetix could have mailed advice and schematics to someone over here, but I am not sure of this, since it was a complex repair. Some local repair folks told me that they wanted the schematics but A did not send them.

i made a statement regarding either not well distributed US goods in EU, or not well serviced US goods in EU. The fact that there are so many complaints regarding IO service in the EU has already proven my point.

You keep on asking those who have bought it if they did not do their research, the answer is all of them who are facing issues, irrespective of whether they admit it. I can see you have taken this personally and want to drag it to a quarrel. Really. Get a better EU productthat either doesn’t fail or gets serviced immediately next time, as you are in Europe. There are many high quality ones though you don’t know them.

There were various other ways to address your Krell sound issues. you should have researched more

 

[OGH]

bonzo75 - you seem to write from a supposed position of better information. Have you actually proven your point regarding service, except for anecdotal evidence?

I do know some competing products over here in Europe. E g The groove. AR PH7. Some other well known brands. Has not changed my opinion.

Krell advice - how do you know I did not do my research! I laugh at this. I did everything I could to make it sound its best, having upgraded Krell amps for five years, up to the flagship status. So I know very well what I am talking about. What about you? Do you have several years of listening experience with the FPB600 - or with the Io? It is not IO!! The name is from the Jupiter moon.

So - interpreting your comment positively - what would be the better (?) European or international phono stages that I should listen to, to outperform the Io? Allnic, for example, seems to be a contender, I have not heard it - but I have not seen a clear majority that it is better than the Io. Do you have suggestions?

No-one wants to be misinformed by the internet. But when you cannot listen to all alternatives directtly, you need to rely on others who have done so. Then you need to sift the good and honest ones from the influenced and partial ones. Reading between lines in audio publications. It took me a long time to learn. But yes, bonzo75, I am a reseacher, and I buy sound equipment on that basis.