Aesthetix Io Users Group

[oldvinyl]

redcars - since you have an Io with volume controls, have you tried it connected directly to your amps (using volume controls on Io and bypass preamp)? If so, what are your listening impressions of Io alone versus Io through Metis?
Thanks!

 

[redcars]

Hi OldVinyl,
I like your moniker. The image just needs to be bigger. I would (also) qualify for that name in at least two respects.



Thanks for your question.

I have been waiting impatiently for replies from others here who, I know, have been interested in the Metis in the past.

See post #715

Here is my attention getter (and the opposite of vinyl and SET amps). Speak up you guys!



Sorry; back to your question: the answer is that I do not know. I did try this twenty years ago, and for some forgotten reason, I did not like it. I also use the features of a preamp for changing sources, but primarily for volume and muting, and I definitely do not want to get up and walk across the room to turn two knobs and balance the volume at a new level each time the spirit moves me. I guess I must be lazy that way.

Thanks again for asking.
Don

 

[Kcin]

redcars - since you have an Io with volume controls, have you tried it connected directly to your amps (using volume controls on Io and bypass preamp)? If so, what are your listening impressions of Io alone versus Io through Metis?
Thanks!

Good question, there is a definite split on straight through versus preamp. Like everything in audio, it depends.

I use mine straight through. No question with the Io it is less versatile than a preamp. Only one line input possible, if configured that way and a ghastly mechanical remote if you want it. I liken it to F1, the Io can win the race on any given day- but is definitely not a daily driver. You have to tune it and work it for it to win. I get why some folks would not get involved.

For me, when optimized, it still is a top ten commercial product performer after all these years.

 

[OGH]

Io direct vs through preamp - is an old debate, I have used both solutions over the years, but overall, in my system / my ears, I prefer a preamp in the chain. The Io direct also works very well, however (in some respects, better).

Don: "I definitely do not want to get up and walk across the room to turn two knobs and balance the volume at a new level each time the spirit moves me." Well yes, but that has never been my experience. With an added gain stage (like the Io, plus a preamp) it is easy to set-and-forget the best mix. For example, I know that the Io really shines at volumes at 14 - 15 o clock or so, but not too high (if too high, I get too much Io / tube noise). So I set it there, and then listen, adjusting the preamp volume, and maybe the Io, and I am ready to go, no more need to adjust the Io volume.

Same thing in my desktop system, where I add a gain stage, the Jade OTL headphone amp, to get better sound, from otherwise too harsh-sounding solid state amps direct to the speakers. Easy to mix and match, so the better amp carries more of the weight in the gain chain. I think the fear of adding gain stages is exaggerated - or "straight wire with gain" purist philosophy. The cost of adding a gain stage (some loss of resolution, clarity, etc) can be outweighed by the benefit (like more musical sound), in my experience. And the Io itself is built on a sequence of gain stages.

Yet - if I REALLY want to hear what my Phlips Herleeen tubes in v1-v2 can do, compared to my Telefunken, would I connect the Io direct to the amps? Maybe yes.

 

[oldvinyl]

Io direct vs through preamp - is an old debate, I have used both solutions over the years, but overall, in my system / my ears, I prefer a preamp in the chain. The Io direct also works very well, however (in some respects, better).

Don: "I definitely do not want to get up and walk across the room to turn two knobs and balance the volume at a new level each time the spirit moves me." Well yes, but that has never been my experience. With an added gain stage (like the Io, plus a preamp) it is easy to set-and-forget the best mix. For example, I know that the Io really shines at volumes at 14 - 15 o clock or so, but not too high (if too high, I get too much Io / tube noise). So I set it there, and then listen, adjusting the preamp volume, and maybe the Io, and I am ready to go, no more need to adjust the Io volume.

Same thing in my desktop system, where I add a gain stage, the Jade OTL headphone amp, to get better sound, from otherwise too harsh-sounding solid state amps direct to the speakers. Easy to mix and match, so the better amp carries more of the weight in the gain chain. I think the fear of adding gain stages is exaggerated - or "straight wire with gain" purist philosophy. The cost of adding a gain stage (some loss of resolution, clarity, etc) can be outweighed by the benefit (like more musical sound), in my experience. And the Io itself is built on a sequence of gain stages.

Yet - if I REALLY want to hear what my Phlips Herleeen tubes in v1-v2 can do, compared to my Telefunken, would I connect the Io direct to the amps? Maybe yes.

OGH - sorry, I was not intending to stir up a debate. I simply asked for redcars' listening impressions.
Just trying to understand how/when/why someone would use a preamp with an Io.

My stated preference is Io direct, no preamp. I don't view it as right/wrong - just simply preference.
Thanks!

 

[OGH]

OGH - sorry, I was not intending to stir up a debate. I simply asked for redcars' listening impressions.
Just trying to understand how/when/why someone would use a preamp with an Io.

My stated preference is Io direct, no preamp. I don't view it as right/wrong - just simply preference.
Thanks!

Thanks, no problem!

 

[redcars]

Io direct vs through preamp - is an old debate, I have used both solutions over the years, but overall, in my system / my ears, I prefer a preamp in the chain. The Io direct also works very well, however (in some respects, better).

Don: "I definitely do not want to get up and walk across the room to turn two knobs and balance the volume at a new level each time the spirit moves me." Well yes, but that has never been my experience. With an added gain stage (like the Io, plus a preamp) it is easy to set-and-forget the best mix. For example, I know that the Io really shines at volumes at 14 - 15 o clock or so, but not too high (if too high, I get too much Io / tube noise). So I set it there, and then listen, adjusting the preamp volume, and maybe the Io, and I am ready to go, no more need to adjust the Io volume.

Same thing in my desktop system, where I add a gain stage, the Jade OTL headphone amp, to get better sound, from otherwise too harsh-sounding solid state amps direct to the speakers. Easy to mix and match, so the better amp carries more of the weight in the gain chain. I think the fear of adding gain stages is exaggerated - or "straight wire with gain" purist philosophy. The cost of adding a gain stage (some loss of resolution, clarity, etc) can be outweighed by the benefit (like more musical sound), in my experience. And the Io itself is built on a sequence of gain stages.

Yet - if I REALLY want to hear what my Phlips Herleeen tubes in v1-v2 can do, compared to my Telefunken, would I connect the Io direct to the amps? Maybe yes.

Hi OGH,
I think that we are saying the same thing about the Io plus a preamp.

I am trying to point out in post #715 that with the Metis, to me, the Io sounds better than straight into the amps. (Sorry, I don’t feel any need to prove this to myself.) I do remember, FWIW, reading that Jim White prefers using a preamp.

You said: “The cost of adding a gain stage (some loss of resolution, clarity, etc) . . . .”

There is a huge increase in “resolution, clarity”, by adding the Metis.

With the AG Trios at 110 Db+, and 4 watt SET amps, quiet is the requirement of the game. Turning the Metis up to 70 (out of 88) with my current phono settings, there is a slight hiss from the horns. At 75 the hiss is a bit more audible. Seventy-five is at the level of PAIN in this room.

Turning the Io controls up (from about 4:30) where it is set now adds more hiss in the horns than turning up the Metis. I could reduce this with quieter tubes in V3-V6, but I have tried and prefer the tubes I have now.

As far as getting up to change the volume: When I am reading a book and listening, maybe. For active listening (involvement) I have the controller in my hands.

Best,
Don

 

[OGH]

Best of luck with your Io and Metis combo, I guess it sounds very good!

 

[oldvinyl]

Good question, there is a definite split on straight through versus preamp. Like everything in audio, it depends.

I use mine straight through. No question with the Io it is less versatile than a preamp. Only one line input possible, if configured that way and a ghastly mechanical remote if you want it. I liken it to F1, the Io can win the race on any given day- but is definitely not a daily driver. You have to tune it and work it for it to win. I get why some folks would not get involved.

For me, when optimized, it still is a top ten commercial product performer after all these years.

I had the line level input and selector switches added to my Io quite a while back. Also had a second set of balanced and RCA outputs added for bi-amping. I tried the line input for a CD player but found the added tube rush and bass levels to not suit my tastes. I do use the additional set of outputs when I want to bi-amp my speakers.

I recently went through and cleaned all the tube pins, sockets and connectors again. Io is singing in fine form.

 

[Kcin]

I had the line level input and selector switches added to my Io quite a while back. Also had a second set of balanced and RCA outputs added for bi-amping. I tried the line input for a CD player but found the added tube rush and bass levels to not suit my tastes. I do use the additional set of outputs when I want to bi-amp my speakers.

I recently went through and cleaned all the tube pins, sockets and connectors again. Io is singing in fine form.

I had mine with extra line level /switch from factory. When it was converted to Eclipse I got it changed to 2 phono inputs with the extra loading board inside now... not on the back with pins. I bi- amp as well but use the the Xlr outputs for that - works well

 

[OGH]

I have always liked the flexibility of Io with volume controls, although mine had to be replaced at the factory, possibly due to too much heat over time. I used to have the Io on for long periods - now I only turn it on when I actually play records (half an hour before). This means I switch it on and off more often, but so far with no problems. I also like that it has the Aux input, which I use for digital. This means that the Io functions as a stand-alone preamp, e g when my preamp is in for service. I also biamp, using a Klotz Y-link from the balanced XLR outputs (on the preamp, or on the Io) to two pairs of XLR cables, one to the MA1 amps and main speakers, the other to a Pioneer amp and effect speakers. This Klotz thing is probably a ..hm.. cludge, but it doesn't detract much from the sound as far as I can hear.

 

[audioquest4life]

I have always liked the flexibility of Io with volume controls, although mine had to be replaced at the factory, possibly due to too much heat over time. I used to have the Io on for long periods - now I only turn it on when I actually play records (half an hour before). This means I switch it on and off more often, but so far with no problems. I also like that it has the Aux input, which I use for digital. This means that the Io functions as a stand-alone preamp, e g when my preamp is in for service. I also biamp, using a Klotz Y-link from the balanced XLR outputs (on the preamp, or on the Io) to two pairs of XLR cables, one to the MA1 amps and main speakers, the other to a Pioneer amp and effect speakers. This Klotz thing is probably a ..hm.. cludge, but it doesn't detract much from the sound as far as I can hear.

I have learned over the years that turning on the Io around 1 hour or more prior to listening sounds best to me for listening sessions. Even then, after the first side plays, it sounds even better. Did you get the latest power supplies when you sent your unit back to Aesthetix for the upgrade? I think the new power supply upgrades are several thousand dollars by themselves. The new power supplies seem to operate cooler, although, if you leave all your tube equipment on for a while, your room is going to warm up. This is the reason I added a mini-split last year…I lost count, LOL, , but this should be 56 tubes (20 McIntosh MC2301, 32 Aesthetix Io dual power supplies, 4 Octave Jubilee preamp). That’s a lot of lumens.

For now, I am fine listening to the Io with only one set of XL/RCAs. I ordered another set of phono cables to go with my new Transrotor TRA9 tonearm coming sometime and will swap out plugs to the Io when I am listening to this new arm and cartridge, hopefully, a Air Tight Opus 1.

Interesting to read that you bi-amp even owning the MA1s, which are no slouch. I know you mentioned splitting the signal to another amp for rear/effect speakers. Is that for SACD/Blue Ray audio? Speaking of MA1, I will have a chance to hear some in my listening studio around February.

Now, I am going warm up the system and play some new PS Audio Octave half speed master recordings. These are well made reference quality records made by PS Audios Octave records label.

 

[OGH]

Hi Audioquest4life - same experience here. Turn the Io on, an hour or so before listening, and even then, it improves with another hour. But it sounds acceptable after half an hour. Maybe I became a bit fanatic - it sounds best after four, five hours! Thats why I kept it on, for long periods, but this probably contributed to having to replace the volume controls (heat over 10 years use) though I don't know the exact cause.

In 2012, I shipped my Io mk 2, with volume, aux input and one power supply (bought in 2004), to Aesthetix for a "partial eclipse upgrade". The "partial" meant that the old black chassis was retained, everything else was upgraded to eclipse standard, from what I understood. I also ordered a second power supply. This was built by Aesthetix in 2012. It sounds much like the power supply I had already. If these have been made / upgraded to the new standard that you refer to - I don't know. They do warm up the room of course but don't seem to make excessive heat. Any way I can check if I have old vs new power supplies?

Bi-amping with the Atma-sphere MA1 monoblocs seems a bit strange, I know. I use the biamping for all sources, including vinyl and digital. The MA1 amps are fully qualified to drive a fairly large room, with sensitive speakers, on their own. No worry. I do this biamping for several reasons. First, and mainly, because I bought a second pair of "effect" speakers, called LCS - late ceiling splash (later called Space generators) from Audiokinesis. I needed a separate amp to be able to control the relative volume of the LCS vs the front speakers - Audiokinesis Dream Maker floorstanders. Even if the MA1 amps could drive both pairs, I noted that it seemed a bit too much for the amps - the sound was better with the Dream Makers alone.

The biamping was helpful also since my room, 51m2 size, is fairly large, and somewhat hard to "drive". At this point I am obliged to Jim Smith's book, Get better sound, where he advocates the idea that the room is part of the system, the system should play "with" the room, and engage it in beneficial ways. This fitted very well with the Audiokinesis philosophy of a large amount of reverberant or reflected sound. So with biamping, I not only got a bit better space and wider dimension of the sound, thanks to the LCS, but also a better fit with the room, some more muscle, compared to the Dream maker front speakers on their own. In most respects this sounds better, although in some respects the Dream makers sound more pure on their own. The trick is to give the effect speakers low volume, in the background - if I can hear them directly, from the listener position, they are too loud.

Tuning the front and effect speaker volumes properly, the result is that the sound is very good in all parts of the room, not just in the listener position in front of the main speakers. This is a huge benefit, since this is a combined listening / living room.

E g my family or audio friends can eat at the dining table, outside the primary listening zone, towards the back of the room, and yet hear very good and dimensional stereo sound. And relax on the sofa towards the back wall. Although, with higher volume, and all this in-room reverbation going on, the sofa needs to be a foot or three out from the back wall, to avoid overmuch bass.

 

[OGH]

A main experience, for me, is that the Aesthetix Io and the Atma-sphere MA-1 amps work very well together, with some variation whether I run the Io direct into the amps, or through a preamp. I used the Io 2004-2012 direct to a huge powerful solid state amp, and it worked OK. But the MA1 is better. There is an extra add-on benefit, I think, using the Io with an OTL amp - since it has no output transformer, it does not reduce the signal / information from the Io, in that respect. It adds clarity, if I can put it that way. The MA1 has run fault-free for soon ten years, after the Mk 3.2 upgrade I got back from the factory. I associate turning on the MA1 with "reliably good sound", whatever the source. Clarity and inner glow. All the more prominent, the better the source - like the Io.

 

[audioquest4life]

Hi Audioquest4life - same experience here. Turn the Io on, an hour or so before listening, and even then, it improves with another hour. But it sounds acceptable after half an hour. Maybe I became a bit fanatic - it sounds best after four, five hours! Thats why I kept it on, for long periods, but this probably contributed to having to replace the volume controls (heat over 10 years use) though I don't know the exact cause.

In 2012, I shipped my Io mk 2, with volume, aux input and one power supply (bought in 2004), to Aesthetix for a "partial eclipse upgrade". The "partial" meant that the old black chassis was retained, everything else was upgraded to eclipse standard, from what I understood. I also ordered a second power supply. This was built by Aesthetix in 2012. It sounds much like the power supply I had already. If these have been made / upgraded to the new standard that you refer to - I don't know. They do warm up the room of course but don't seem to make excessive heat. Any way I can check if I have old vs new power supplies?

Bi-amping with the Atma-sphere MA1 monoblocs seems a bit strange, I know. I use the biamping for all sources, including vinyl and digital. The MA1 amps are fully qualified to drive a fairly large room, with sensitive speakers, on their own. No worry. I do this biamping for several reasons. First, and mainly, because I bought a second pair of "effect" speakers, called LCS - late ceiling splash (later called Space generators) from Audiokinesis. I needed a separate amp to be able to control the relative volume of the LCS vs the front speakers - Audiokinesis Dream Maker floorstanders. Even if the MA1 amps could drive both pairs, I noted that it seemed a bit too much for the amps - the sound was better with the Dream Makers alone.

The biamping was helpful also since my room, 51m2 size, is fairly large, and somewhat hard to "drive". At this point I am obliged to Jim Smith's book, Get better sound, where he advocates the idea that the room is part of the system, the system should play "with" the room, and engage it in beneficial ways. This fitted very well with the Audiokinesis philosophy of a large amount of reverberant or reflected sound. So with biamping, I not only got a bit better space and wider dimension of the sound, thanks to the LCS, but also a better fit with the room, some more muscle, compared to the Dream maker front speakers on their own. In most respects this sounds better, although in some respects the Dream makers sound more pure on their own. The trick is to give the effect speakers low volume, in the background - if I can hear them directly, from the listener position, they are too loud.

Tuning the front and effect speaker volumes properly, the result is that the sound is very good in all parts of the room, not just in the listener position in front of the main speakers. This is a huge benefit, since this is a combined listening / living room.

E g my family or audio friends can eat at the dining table, outside the primary listening zone, towards the back of the room, and yet hear very good and dimensional stereo sound.

I am not sure when Aesthetix started upgrading power supplies. It was availability as an option for me last year when I was selecting from the list of options that Glen provided me for the partial Eclipse upgrades. I kept the same chassis as well…I like the brushed metal faceplate look. I would recommend reaching out to Glen or send a note to Info@ Aesthetix to see if your Io has the new power supplies. I was told they are cooler, no hum, and more efficient. Of course, you can hear hum from any power supply if your ear is right next to it, but, standing in front of the rack I hear nothing.

Interesting that you add rear presence speakers to augment your sound. That must be very pleasing for your family as you mentioned that the space is shared listening and living room. You are definitely investing in equipment to maintain peace and harmony with the family. I am sure it is way better sounding than distributed audio piped around the house.

 

[OGH]

Thanks, I will check with Aesthetix.

Your comment on pleasing sound is spot on. Precisely because the system works so well "with" (and within) the main living / listening room, I enjoy the sound from adjacent rooms also, with the doors open, like the kitchen, e g preparing dinner. I don't feel a neeed for a distributed system. Instead we like the way the sound flows, from the living room.

 

[OGH]

My Einstein The Tube goes to repair/upgrade soon. So I will be testing Io direct to the MA-1 amps once more - and for a longer period.
Also, we're now listening to the front speakers alone, with the effect speakers disconnected.
Maybe, here also, less is more. You never know, in audio.

 

[dan31]

Good thing about the Einstein service will be the duration you live with the Io direct. You will get a good comparison when the Einstein returns.

 

[audioquest4life]

I have been enjoying listening to music through the Io and cannot add anything more to what’s already been said…it is a stellar performer when configured above the baseline of Io or Signature version to the Eclipse variants. However, even the baseline Io and Signature are really great starting points.

Now that we have achieved a level of performance in which the Io helps facilitate the reproduction of music, it is evident to me that the Io has no sonic limitations. It plays to the quality level of the sources feeding into it. It can extrapolate the sonic signature and convey the nuances of any tonearm/cartridge combinations which leads to the ease and less angst of swapping tonearms/cartridge….because the sonic signature of the Io is less of a factor as it does what it is supposed to do by allowing whatever is fed into it to breathe in a manner of volumetric efficiency that is probably equal to 100ps/liter, LOL.

I mention all of this because I recently installed an Air-Tight Opus 1 and have been enjoying music anew again, albeit with different listeNing perspectives. That is to say, the Opus 1 is able to gather all artifacts of sound contained within the grooves and with almost imperceptible noise (errant clicks from old but good scratched records) that you are projected to the recording venue, auditorium, or the Bayreuth Festspiel Haus to listen to some Wagner…the Io simply transmits the beauty of music without calling attention to itself.

Listening to the song Liberty by Annette Asvik made my wife feel emotional due to how real the expression of emotion was conveyed, the voicing, breathing, recording venue, saxophone, all just added to an “experience” that we have only been able to achieve in the last few years with specific upgrades here and there. Yeah, I am listening to music now because of the “essence“ of reality and emotion are so much more captured through the Io and by what you use to feed into it. Sara K from Stockfisch RecorDs has some really good recordings and the same sense of reality as we get with other recordings is easily exhibited and portrayed during listening Sessions. Listening to Waterfalls from the Waterfalls D2D master recording album, well, the piano has never been heard at this level of palpability, the sound impressions and decay of reverberated artifacts associated with a piano and that of hearing the piano feet being depressed also with an associated lingering decay of piano keystrokes, just makes for a very enjoyable listening session. No stress, just relaxing and emotionally engaging. Not engaging where you are on edge or anticipating the next note because you know “that” album very well, but, putting you into an almost zen state of relaxation where you may find yourself almost dozing off in your seat. That is perfection!

 

[OGH]

Hi Audioquest4life. Happy to hear about how well the Opus works with the Io, for you! «Relaxing» sounds fine as long as I don’t actually doze off (hasn’t happened with the Atlas). Is this through your Jubilee preamp, or direct to the amp?