Airtight Opus 1, ch precision p1, Techdas AF3 premium combo but which tonearm?

kodomo

Well-Known Member
Apr 26, 2017
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#41
I do not mean to disagree, maybe we are seeing this differently...

I multiply compliance numbers given at 100Hz by 1.5, as suggested by resfreq.com. That may be the difference in the numbers we each see. That factor could be higher up to 2.0.

Take Opus-1 for example:
8×10-6Cm/Dyne at 100Hz X 1.5 yields dynamic compliance of 12
12.5g weight + 0.5 gram for bolts is 13g.

At Vinyl Engine, for 18g Effective Mass, compliance of 12 for 13g gives 9Hz, well within their 8-11Hz green range. But even your 10.189Hz would be in that range.

At resfreq.com:
Tonearm EF 18 + Cart+Bolts 12.5 (30.5) yields 8.319Hz.

Atlas at 12 x 10-6cm/dyne at 100Hz X 1.5 gives 18 compliance
11.6g weight + .5g bolts is 12.1g.
VE shows 7Hz dynamic compliance - probably okay ?

At resfreq.com
Toneam EF 18 + Cart+Bolts 12.1 (30.1) with 18cu gives 6.838Hz

Thanks for your MS effective mass, 10-16g.. If it was me I would have distributor tell vdH I'd like adjustment to support 18g EF - which is what I had to do. But the process is very tedious and vdH does as the does.
Yes, you are right, I thought the numbers were given in 10hz and not 100hz.

I actually have written a letter and enclose it with the cartridge going to VdH and also told my dealer what has to be done. What I wanted was the cartridge tuned to my 18gr 4 point. I was told whatever I asked for is done.

Maybe I am missing something but what else can be the reason for mistracking/distortion. I have quadruple checked the alignment, vtf and tried various antiskate and vta settings. I am not talking about treble being forward or sibilance, I am talking about distortion like a white noise/swoosh kind of thing on loud hi hats, or similar sounds that goes on in the treble region and are loud.
 

bazelio

Active Member
Sep 27, 2016
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#42
@kodomo are you able to measure crosstalk and anti-skate? I don't think this sounds like an issue related to a slightly less-than-ideal resonant frequency. If you have any desire to do so, I'd be glad to take some measurements of your cart on my 11" 4-point using an oscilloscope. Though, I'm in the USA so that might not be feasible.
 

kodomo

Well-Known Member
Apr 26, 2017
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#43
@kodomo are you able to measure crosstalk and anti-skate? I don't think this sounds like an issue related to a slightly less-than-ideal resonant frequency. If you have any desire to do so, I'd be glad to take some measurements of your cart on my 11" 4-point using an oscilloscope. Though, I'm in the USA so that might not be feasible.
Why, do you think it is azimuth causing this?

My friend will send me his adjust+ in 10 days. However, I tried different azimuth setting (6 in total) and the distortion was there, especially on d2d lp's cymbals or dynamic musics treble range during loud passages.
 

bazelio

Active Member
Sep 27, 2016
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#44
I don't think we know what is causing it, but it seems very unlikely that a slight shift in resonance frequency from the "supposed" ideal range is the culprit. My cart is slightly outside the theoretical ideal, and it sounds great. So, if you are getting the Adjust+ software, that should work. If it can be used to dial in the anti-skate, please do so. This could be an anti-skate problem where you're getting some waveform clipping. If so, it could certainly be audible on sharp, fast, dynamic passages. I'm curious about both azimuth and zenith here also, though. When you aligned zenith using the protractor, were you able to see the stylus itself or were you simply aligning to the cantilever and assuming the stylus was straight? In any event, let's see all the Adjust+ measurements. I tend to think azimuth and zenith are less likely to be the cause, but it's good to know for sure that all parameters are aligned by the numbers and go from there.

PS, in the meantime, you might want to try putting some hours on the cart and see if anything changes.
 
Last edited:

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#45
Tang had the problem you had on his EMT with the vdh. Some distortion on certain LPs. Clipping on dynamic passages. His tonearm guy came in and made an adjustment and sorted it out.
 

mountainjoe

Industry Expert
Mar 25, 2015
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#46
Tang had the problem you had on his EMT with the vdh. Some distortion on certain LPs. Clipping on dynamic passages. His tonearm guy came in and made an adjustment and sorted it out.
Tang - would be great to know what adjustment was made?
 

Tango

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Mar 12, 2017
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#47
Tang had the problem you had on his EMT with the vdh. Some distortion on certain LPs. Clipping on dynamic passages. His tonearm guy came in and made an adjustment and sorted it out.
In my case adjusting azimuth, tracking force, vta did help minimize not eliminate that particular distortion on that particular section of piano in that song. BUT after those adjustments the distortion showed up in other record instead..hehe :p. Started out suboptimum was the root of problem in my cases. Whatever protractor you are using try to go back to position null point more presicely all over again. Arm, cart dont produce that distortion by themself imo.
 

kodomo

Well-Known Member
Apr 26, 2017
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#48
In my case adjusting azimuth, tracking force, vta did help minimize not eliminate that particular distortion on that particular section of piano in that song. BUT after those adjustments the distortion showed up in other record instead..hehe :p. Started out suboptimum was the root of problem in my cases. Whatever protractor you are using try to go back to position null point more presicely all over again. Arm, cart dont produce that distortion by themself imo.
So, you still have distortion with vdh on loud passages but not on that particular album? Is it sounding like very sharp treble, with swooshing white noise like sounds on loud cymbals or similar sounds that distort like mistracking/overloading. Did these get remedied, I could not understand from your answer.
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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#49
I agree with Tang's post about rechecking alignment (overhang), not just null point(s) but getting the cantilever aligned precisely - perhaps the most frustrating of all alignment tasks, at least for me. But lucky for all of us the Master Sig has a nice long cantilever (the longest of all vdH) right out in the open. VTF should initially be at the top end of the range in the specs.

Piano - especially firmly struck upper-mid to treble notes - is exactly the music where groove distortion will show up as a function of azimuth and anti-skate. Sopranos too. And most particularly if the music is closer to the inner groove / run-out area. I have an album with Emmy Lou Harris - a very strong voice - singing a femsong "I"ve Had Enough" as the final cut on a side that I use as my test for this. If the stylus tracks Emmy clear and distinct then we're usually good to go. (Trio, Warner Brothers 9 25491-1 )

Trio - Parton Ronstadt Harris.jpg
 
May 30, 2010
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#50
(...) I have an album with Emmy Lou Harris - a very strong voice - singing a femsong "I"ve Had Enough" as the final cut on a side that I use as my test for this. If the stylus tracks Emmy clear and distinct then we're usually good to go. (Trio, Warner Brothers 9 25491-1 )
The question should be now how this adjustment correlates with the adjustments carried with advanced instruments such as the AnalogMagik cartridge alignment software. Did you compare them?
 

Tango

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Mar 12, 2017
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#51
So, you still have distortion with vdh on loud passages but not on that particular album? Is it sounding like very sharp treble, with swooshing white noise like sounds on loud cymbals or similar sounds that distort like mistracking/overloading. Did these get remedied, I could not understand from your answer.
No, I don't have any distortion on high dynamic loud passage now. To write it more clearly, I had that distortion when my Axiom on 927 was not set up right regardless of carts I switched, Master Sig included. The distortion sounded like a cracking breaking up sound on surging busy passage of piano, the last song on the same side of Nils Lofgrin's Keith Dont Go. I then adjusted vta, vtf, azimuth focusing on this particular song. The distortion did not go away, only lessen it a bit. Worse was consequently I heard this kind of distortion in vinyls that did not have this problem before. It was the side effect of trying to rid the distortion from that one song. The root of the problem was ME. I did not set up and align the arm cart right at the first place. I got rid of ME and told my tone arm guy to redo the setup all over again and voila...no more distortion. I was less precise and less accurate on the initial set up than my tone arm guy. It never looks good admitting I suck at initial set up but that is the truth. So now I always have my tonearm guy do the initial setup. He is so damn precise and accurate and quick. I only do the fine tuning to get the sound more involving and real.

Kind regards,
Tang
 
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tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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#52
The question should be now how this adjustment correlates with the adjustments carried with advanced instruments such as the AnalogMagik cartridge alignment software. Did you compare them?
Not two adjustments to compare. The music is the telltale for the tool and the test thereafter. i don't use AM much.
 

kodomo

Well-Known Member
Apr 26, 2017
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#53
I hope it is a setup issue and not a compliance one, because then it can be remedied. I put my Kuzma cartridge back on and everything is as it should be. Actually, it looks easier to setup the MS Sig as the cantilever is exposed. It is hard for me to accept it was a setup issue as I have gone over it a few times but will do again. The sharp, overly lit highs and distortion on loud treble passages did not go away in any setting. I will try again tonight and will make a recording of the problem I am hearing, it is not a subtle issue, if it was I would keep it on just to have some hours on it. Anyway, after the recording maybe it would be easier to diagnose together. Thanks to everyone for help.
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#54
Kevin Scott played the master signature on the kuzma Stabi M in the living voice vox Palladian room in 2018 and it sounded great
 
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kodomo

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Apr 26, 2017
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#55
Kevin Scott played the master signature on the kuzma Stabi M in the living voice vox Palladian room in 2018 and it sounded great
It gives me hope but we do not know which version of the ms sig it was, there are so many variations VdH does... Do you know which 4 point arm they had on?
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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#56
Kevin Scott played the master signature on the kuzma Stabi M in the living voice vox Palladian room in 2018 and it sounded great
From video, the arm was probably a Stogi S 12 VTA (12") which has a 12g effective mass - so, alas, a bit different situation than the 18g EF 4P 11".

VOX Kuzma Munic 2019.jpg

(The other VOX room featured the Monaco 2.0 turntable with the 4Point and a Fuuga cartridge.)
 

XV-1

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May 24, 2010
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#57
No, I don't have any distortion on high dynamic loud passage now. To write it more clearly, I had that distortion when my Axiom on 927 was not set up right regardless of carts I switched, Master Sig included. The distortion sounded like a cracking breaking up sound on surging busy passage of piano, the last song on the same side of Nils Lofgrin's Keith Dont Go. I then adjusted vta, vtf, azimuth focusing on this particular song. The distortion did not go away, only lessen it a bit. Worse was consequently I heard this kind of distortion in vinyls that did not have this problem before. It was the side effect of trying to rid the distortion from that one song. The root of the problem was ME. I did not set up and align the arm cart right at the first place. I got rid of ME and told my tone arm guy to redo the setup all over again and voila...no more distortion. I was less precise and less accurate on the initial set up than my tone arm guy. It never looks good admitting I suck at initial set up but that is the truth. So now I always have my tonearm guy do the initial setup. He is so damn precise and accurate and quick. I only do the fine tuning to get the sound more involving and real.

Kind regards,
Tang
LOL. very funny Tang
 

Solypsa

Active Member
Jun 7, 2017
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www.solypsa.com
#58
All the points about precision of setup and subsequent changes are so important.

I do believe also that one eventually buys tonearms to match carts or carts to match tonearms ;)
 
May 30, 2010
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#59
(...) I do believe also that one eventually buys tonearms to match carts or carts to match tonearms ;)
You need a lot of accurate data to do it - the effective mass of tonearm and the true dynamic compliance of the cartridge, including the frequency at which the compliance was measured. Matching is checked at very low frequencies and manufacturers usually measure one the compliance - they seldom specify which - at 100 or 1000Hz.

Fortunately using a low frequency test LP and an audio RTA it is possible to check for the real resonance of the tonearm and cartridge.

On this subject see: https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/tonearm-cartridge-compatability/
 

Solypsa

Active Member
Jun 7, 2017
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www.solypsa.com
#60
I agree with these points 100%. There is also (not to replace these objective measures) subjective synergy. When both criteria are applied often one must abandon preconceived notion and simply change arm or cart to best advantage of the other.

(Iow [judged individually] best arm + best cart don't always make best system...)
 

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