American Sound AS-2000 Installations- Far East (Tango)
- Thread starter ddk
- Start date
Lit is different from lighter but the experiences are then closer in terms of mood created than say with the thematic opposites, darker or weighty which add a more sombre or serious quality for me. I don’t see brighter as necessarily irritating unless there are unpleasant distortions but just brighter than a comparative darker sound. Absolutely balanced is balanced and I would have thought not by definition any of the terms above. Ked my preference is not very far from the middle but that is just the way with Tao.
I always thought bright was meant to be the hated hitting distorted high, etched, not the clean, extended, musical highs that go on and on without getting bright.
While I think weighty has lower body weight, as does dark, weighty is not necessarily dark. Weighty can also have weight with linearity through the middle with nice highs, like Brinkmann balance.
Ked I’m thinking for me that etched is hot rather than just bright... kind of bright gone too far, searing hot is leave the room material. Weighty can have tops as well but just where the sum balance is weighted on the bottom half, tho I’d always rather have weighty than lighter balance because a concert piano never sounds right to me without it’s appropriate weight on the left hand. This is of course the joy of writing about music and sound and why sometimes committed audiophiles go to war lol, words are strangely dangerous critters and I rarely employ them while I am enjoying listening to the music.
Last edited:
Your friend I understand uses three pairs ML3. I would have to eat ramen or Burger King for the rest of the year to do that...hehe.
I dont do complicated system. That is for Gian and you with tremendous experiences..not me. Still, I wonder, Sam, why use M1.2 on highs. To my ears, the ML3 is excellent on highs...very very nuanced with excellent definition. Many amps have highs. But most have blurred highs. Not highs with definition like the ML3. Does M1.2 has excellent highs?
Kind regards,
Tang
Thanks for interesting comments on 'darker', its antonym(s), and other observations on the Lamm sound. While this thread is mostly about the ML3, the 'darker' word is not uncommon to reviews and accounts of other Lamm electronics. I referenced 'darker' in my own reviews of the LL2.1 and the M1.2 (though I chose not to describe either that way.) But as noted, the word does fall easily to hand and you hear it often associated to Lamm gear.
Currently listening to other Lamm electronics that are in for review (with more to come), I'm actively pondering what for now (I'm grossly calling) the Lamm sound. It's unique among amplification, imo. However you describe it, the Lamm's tonality is one key to its connecting one emotively with the music.
As Bonzo noted, 'brighter' and 'lighter' are not, imo, the antonyms to 'darker'. 'Bright' generally does not have a positive connotation, while 'lighter' speaks less about tone than weight, particularly in the mids and lows. Tao's mention of somber and serious are helpful though I'd use those more for music than to describe the Lamm sound; I like his thoughts on continuum. Mike's comments about candle-lit edge illumination are very interesting. From my Lamm experience I knew immediately what he was after, I could 'see' what he means; though I probably would not adopt it, it is helpful. I do like Mike's pointing to textural and liquid characteristics. I have not heard his dart amps; the description alone made me think of the Audio Research REF 250se which I would say is illuminated and very open up top, and throughout the soundstage and venue.
For now my hypothesis has the antonym of 'darker' as 'lean', which kinda makes me think 'darker' is not the most apt description, though it is out there. I hear Lamms offering tonal weight. I won't call them lush or thick. Its more about a making-whole or lending body to fundamentals while fleshing out harmonics and overtones. While I easily hear into the soundstage and corners, I wonder if venue context, even backwall reflection, is less descernible, less heard as specific frequency (as fundamentals), but rather more irrational and random if you will, such that its perception, in the case of Lamm, is less clear, more "in the dark." I don't know - "turning impressions into words is always a challenge."
Tim, I love your effort to render words with precision in our audio context, and the way you evaluate and weigh the meanings of the words and hold the words up to the light and look at them from the different angles of our audio perspective.
My more recent experiences with SET like Lamm have also taught me the meaning of fleshy, meaty and visceral which for me is very much on the other side of the spectrum to lean. Lean is not so satisfying to the musically carnivorous. This may just be a phase... but it feels like a destination.
Last edited:
>>I hear Lamms offering tonal weight. I won't call them lush or thick. Its more about a making-whole or lending body to fundamentals while fleshing >>out harmonics and overtones. While I easily hear into the soundstage and corners, I wonder if venue context, even backwall reflection, is less >>descernible, less heard as specific frequency (as fundamentals), but rather more irrational and random if you will, such that its perception, in the >>case of Lamm, is less clear
I have never compared the amps, only heard them in two systems, and compared the pre to a kondo 1000. Based on guesses, unverified on my part, I relate to what you say up there. However, I know if with valve amps, if venue context or backwall reflections are less discernible, the trick is to (David, best not to read while eating else you might choke) add a preamp like Soulution or maybe Boulder ahead of that valve amp like lamm. I have done these experiments in three systems with Allnic, NAT Magma, using Soulution pre, and with the NAT and Silvercore 833c using Grandinote pre (does similar though not as good as Soulution).
If I was using a SET or a valve amp with non-horn speakers, including sensitive ones like Tannoys, I would get a Soulution preamp. It also cleans up any valve haze, lowers noisefloor considerably so that music flows easily from low volume levels, adds a room behind the speakers with loads of venue ambience, increases transparency to recordings, and very importantly increases drive and gain and separation which many non-horn speakers lack when underdriven with SETs. And just to clarify, I do not like the Soulution power amp, and the combo or the power and the pre, I much prefer their pre and then a valve amp. I have never tried the pre with a PP like AR, would be interesting to to see if it cleared up the valve fuzz. The valve harmonics and tones are retained in such a context.
I have never compared the amps, only heard them in two systems, and compared the pre to a kondo 1000. Based on guesses, unverified on my part, I relate to what you say up there. However, I know if with valve amps, if venue context or backwall reflections are less discernible, the trick is to (David, best not to read while eating else you might choke) add a preamp like Soulution or maybe Boulder ahead of that valve amp like lamm. I have done these experiments in three systems with Allnic, NAT Magma, using Soulution pre, and with the NAT and Silvercore 833c using Grandinote pre (does similar though not as good as Soulution).
If I was using a SET or a valve amp with non-horn speakers, including sensitive ones like Tannoys, I would get a Soulution preamp. It also cleans up any valve haze, lowers noisefloor considerably so that music flows easily from low volume levels, adds a room behind the speakers with loads of venue ambience, increases transparency to recordings, and very importantly increases drive and gain and separation which many non-horn speakers lack when underdriven with SETs. And just to clarify, I do not like the Soulution power amp, and the combo or the power and the pre, I much prefer their pre and then a valve amp. I have never tried the pre with a PP like AR, would be interesting to to see if it cleared up the valve fuzz. The valve harmonics and tones are retained in such a context.
Last edited:
Have you evaluated a Spectral preamp in this specific context (as an alternative to the Soulution pre)?
(I would think a Spectral pre also would accomplish these same characteristics you are crediting with the Soulution pre.)
(I would think a Spectral pre also would accomplish these same characteristics you are crediting with the Soulution pre.)
Possibly. I do not know. Madfloyd had Soulution pre, then moved to Dartzeel. It is not just about SS cleanliness but also the drive added to the chain. Not sure if they all have the same characteristics
Thank you Ron - that means alot to me. I too appreciate the care and concision with which you write your own posts. Words can connect us. We all try so hard to grasp what, at times, seems almost ineffable, the intangible almost magical qualities of music and sound that take us where no other senses can go. It is hard to share; we never really know if we are communicating the musical experiences we have with one another, and only through faith in our shared humanity and its languages can we try.
Yes, the topic of combining valves with solid-state, which and where, has a long history without coming to firm rules or even guidelines. No guaranteed synergy without getting to specific models. Any direction would seem properly driven by speaker choice. And to some extent music - that's full orchestral in my room.
I've only heard the Soulution amps with Magico and (of all choices) Verity. For a while (way back) I was all solid-state, then all tube for many years (CJ, Atma-Sphere). At this point I'm living with ARC 10's up front and the Lamm SS amps. The strengths of each seem to will out with the speakers I have. Room (17x20) is too smal for larger horns. BUT the all Lamm system currently in play is very easy on my ears.
I don't know if Mr. Lamm has thought about it, or even if its possible in theory, to bridge two M1.2s, but I'd listen to 'em.
I would describe the Lamm sound as being rich and vibrant without being slow or syrupy. The hybrids are not what I would put in the super fast category with the Swiss electronics but quicker and more nimble than most SS out there. If in doubt look at the spec sheets where the Lamms switch at up to 150kHz.
The SETs I feel are blessed with even more clarity and fluidity while sharing the same tonal balance. Note that I purposely am leaving out possible dynamic comparisons as the choice of speakers will overwhelmingly decide what matches best with them.
The ML2.1 and 2.2 I find more lit up than the ML3. The 6c33b does this. The GM70 I have found to be on the warm side, think 845 vs 211 for the 6c33. I through that in because I think most of the SET population is more familiar with these western tubes and should get the analogy. What I most admire about the ML3 is that the sometimes sluggish nature of the GM70 is livened up by Vlad finding more shape and detail up top not typically found with these tubes as well as more control down below. Not surprising as that is what he did with the 6c33b too.That is basically the Lamm house sound, a kind of consistency from top to bottom but perhaps more importantly consistency throughout the varying levels of amplitude.
Khun Tang's Big Cs look to me like perfect candidates. I thoroughly enjoyed my time with ML2.1s with Sierra Horns. Did so for a few months in fact. I can only imagine what would have been like if the speakers I was babysitting had a better tweeter than the Coral that came with it as the base model.
The SETs I feel are blessed with even more clarity and fluidity while sharing the same tonal balance. Note that I purposely am leaving out possible dynamic comparisons as the choice of speakers will overwhelmingly decide what matches best with them.
The ML2.1 and 2.2 I find more lit up than the ML3. The 6c33b does this. The GM70 I have found to be on the warm side, think 845 vs 211 for the 6c33. I through that in because I think most of the SET population is more familiar with these western tubes and should get the analogy. What I most admire about the ML3 is that the sometimes sluggish nature of the GM70 is livened up by Vlad finding more shape and detail up top not typically found with these tubes as well as more control down below. Not surprising as that is what he did with the 6c33b too.That is basically the Lamm house sound, a kind of consistency from top to bottom but perhaps more importantly consistency throughout the varying levels of amplitude.
Khun Tang's Big Cs look to me like perfect candidates. I thoroughly enjoyed my time with ML2.1s with Sierra Horns. Did so for a few months in fact. I can only imagine what would have been like if the speakers I was babysitting had a better tweeter than the Coral that came with it as the base model.
Yes, the topic of combining valves with solid-state, which and where, has a long history without coming to firm rules or even guidelines. No guaranteed synergy without getting to specific models. Any direction would seem properly driven by speaker choice. And to some extent music - that's full orchestral in my room.
I've only heard the Soulution amps with Magico and (of all choices) Verity. For a while (way back) I was all solid-state, then all tube for many years (CJ, Atma-Sphere). At this point I'm living with ARC 10's up front and the Lamm SS amps. The strengths of each seem to will out with the speakers I have. Room (17x20) is too smal for larger horns. BUT the all Lamm system currently in play is very easy on my ears.
I don't know if Mr. Lamm has thought about it, or even if its possible in theory, to bridge two M1.2s, but I'd listen to 'em.
It can be done apparently as Elina can provide instructions on how to do so if needed. I'd try it but am not very optimistic. Been disappointed too many times I guess as the initial reaction of "MO' POWAH!" ends up becoming "WTF?" down the road LOL. In my admittedly limited experience I've always preffered to Bi-Amp rather than bridge. This is reflected in my choice of settings on the M1s. Bridging seems to do weird things on my speakers even if all their impedance curves are pretty benign. Bridged becomes either really grating on me or really dulled. It's weird and hard to explain as depending on speakers there has so far been no in between I've found. This makes bridging too much of a crap shoot for me.
Ultimately when I needed more power I went with M2.2s and swapped tubes to try and approach stock M1.2 sound. I got closest with Valvo and Amperex military variants from the Holland factories. M1.2 I really love with CV2492. Good thing this family of tubes is nowhere near in price to the AX7s.
Similar threads
