American Sound AS-2000 Installations- Far East (Tango)

Jul 5, 2014
670
19
18
Salem, OR
So get it right the first time.Customers should not be beta testers. Building to a price point is different.
2017 Ford GT.jpg

I agree with your beta tester philosophy. I think Henry Ford could have generated a lot more revenue and we consumers could have saved much money had Henry by-passed the Model-T and just when straight for the juggular - the GT. I hate it when visionaries hold back. :)
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,606
54
48
Metro DC
View attachment 51565

I agree with your beta tester philosophy. I think Henry Ford could have generated a lot more revenue and we consumers could have saved much money had Henry by-passed the Model-T and just when straight for the juggular - the GT. I hate it when visionaries hold back. :)
LOL. I assume you are being facetious. I recall even when I was in junior high school there were concept cars remarkably similar to the cutting edge cars of today. I am pretty sure the Model T was state of the art for it's intended market. Then again I am no expert.

I recall when I saw the Magico Q5 at Overture in Delaware. Alon Wilf claimed it was the best speaker he could make regardless of price. It's amazing how the speaker art has progressed since then.

;)
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
2,932
1,698
113
Bangkok
Here is the difference between two tt setups. The AF1P and AS2000. Variables are only on arm/cart combo. AF1P with MSL Plat/Axiom. AS2000 with Opus1/SME. I now listen to AS setup 95% of the time.

AF1P/MSL/Axiom


AS2000/Opus1/SME

 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
5,584
466
83
North Shore of Boston
Thanks Tango. I hear one as slightly cooler and brighter and the other as slightly warmer and darker. Hard to say which is more representative of the original event. Four variables: turntable, arm, cartridge, and phono cable (assuming Axiom cable is captive and different from SME cable). Can't tell what is contributing to what. Long term, I might prefer the second video as it seems more saturated tonally, sounds richer, but the first captures a liveliness right from the beginning that reminds me of a live concert. It also seems that the first video might be outside in a larger venue, less personal, while the second video is more intimate, indoors and on a smaller stage. And I imagining these differences? Interesting contrast.

One is a beat to the windward mark during a big regatta on a sunny, hot afternoon. The other is a slower evening pleasure sail, calmer seas, wind at your back approaching the sunset. I like both, but prefer the latter.
 

dminches

Active Member
Oct 22, 2011
837
79
28
There is a 5th important variable, the recording quality and ability of an iPhone.
 
Likes: Lagonda

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
4,570
371
83
Greater Boston
Excellent. Now that is where video with limited recording quality makes sense. A relative comparison under otherwise identical circumstances. Very instructive.
 

bazelio

Active Member
Sep 27, 2016
839
209
43
California
Thanks Tango. I hear one as slightly cooler and brighter and the other as slightly warmer and darker. Hard to say which is more representative of the original event. Four variables: turntable, arm, cartridge, and phono cable (assuming Axiom cable is captive and different from SME cable). Can't tell what is contributing to what. Long term, I might prefer the second video as it seems more saturated tonally, sounds richer, but the first captures a liveliness right from the beginning that reminds me of a live concert. It also seems that the first video might be outside in a larger venue, less personal, while the second video is more intimate, indoors and on a smaller stage. And I imagining these differences? Interesting contrast.

One is a beat to the windward mark during a big regatta on a sunny, hot afternoon. The other is a slower evening pleasure sail, calmer seas, wind at your back approaching the sunset. I like both, but prefer the latter.
I would tend to agree that the sound in the first video better captures the liveliness of a "you are there" experience. For me the second is a bit dark and dull. I wouldn't prefer it most likely. I'm unable to determine which of the two captures more inner detail, how the sound stage rendering compares, etc from these compressed cell phone videos, and wouldn't attempt to do so. But from a tonal and liveliness perspective, the first video reminds me of how this record sounds in my own system. YMMV and all that.

Tang, we do enjoy your videos a lot. May we convince you to buy a Sony PCM-D100 in order to significantly improve the audio quality? :) . It couldn't hurt to ask. Haha!
 
Likes: mountainjoe

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
2,932
1,698
113
Bangkok
Thanks Tango. I hear one as slightly cooler and brighter and the other as slightly warmer and darker. Hard to say which is more representative of the original event. Four variables: turntable, arm, cartridge, and phono cable (assuming Axiom cable is captive and different from SME cable). Can't tell what is contributing to what. Long term, I might prefer the second video as it seems more saturated tonally, sounds richer, but the first captures a liveliness right from the beginning that reminds me of a live concert. It also seems that the first video might be outside in a larger venue, less personal, while the second video is more intimate, indoors and on a smaller stage. And I imagining these differences? Interesting contrast.

One is a beat to the windward mark during a big regatta on a sunny, hot afternoon. The other is a slower evening pleasure sail, calmer seas, wind at your back approaching the sunset. I like both, but prefer the latter.
Hi Peter,

Here is how I describe it. Imagine you are in a park along the Boston side of Charles River. People are enjoying the sunny day chatting, playing talking, singing in vicinity around you. And you are microphone interviewing Ack there with a single professional mono microphone with fluffy fur cover. That microphone is so good at recording a direct sound that it is pointed at in this case Ack. You will hear Ack so well and hear less of what is going on around you. Now, if you were to use a two head microphone(the V shape kind with one head point 45 degree to the left and the other 45 degree to the right.), you will hear Ack less in focus while hearing what people around you as clearly relative to distance of sound sources. There are many youtube videos illustrating the effect of types of microphone I am talking about.

The sound of AF1P vs AS2000 is as the above analogy except not that much in exact degree. AS2000 being the two headed microphone, you hear more what is going on around the room. It is so good at picking up nuances, cues, tiny vibrating sound that when add up translate to dimensionality, layers and depth. AF1 P on the other hand is like a mono point shoot mic. You get this sound popping out of darkness. It is like mono microphone enhancing Ack voice while lower down the volume of other noises around. So the sound that AF1 P picks up is always more pronounced with enhanced dynamic while its darkness of back ground block out nuances and cues. Just listen to the first notes of guitar in the two videos you will hear more strings vibrating with the AS2000 but less dynamic on plug than AF1P. When Clapton says "See if you can spot this," you don't just hear him you hear his voice reflecting the hall. Yes, what I just wrote is exaggerated. Exaggeration gets point across easier imo. AF1P also gives excellent spatial cues and ambient. The AS2000 just does it a few notches better. The AF1P is always stronger in bass than the AS2000. What sounds more natural? That's for you to decide. Listening to records of different eras a lot will make you understand how they engineered sound these days too. And it is no different to audio gears.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
2,932
1,698
113
Bangkok
There is a 5th important variable, the recording quality and ability of an iPhone.
This is not really a variable. If my Samsung on a stupid Youtube can let you hear differences, it means the differences is multiply by X factor more in real. Video can be very useful when you focus your hearing only on the differences that you hear on A from B in the same system. Using a hand phone actually is like doing a mono recording like I just wrote to Peter above. If I use a two heads recorder, you will even hear more ambient in my room.
 
Likes: NorthStar

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
11,650
1,460
113
London
Hi Peter,

Here is how I describe it. Imagine you are in a park along the Boston side of Charles River. People are enjoying the sunny day chatting, playing talking, singing in vicinity around you. And you are microphone interviewing Ack there with a single professional mono microphone with fluffy fur cover. That microphone is so good at recording a direct sound that it is pointed at in this case Ack. You will hear Ack so well and hear less of what is going on around you. Now, if you were to use a two head microphone(the V shape kind with one head point 45 degree to the left and the other 45 degree to the right.), you will hear Ack less in focus while hearing what people around you as clearly relative to distance of sound sources. There are many youtube videos illustrating the effect of types of microphone I am talking about.

The sound of AF1P vs AS2000 is as the above analogy except not that much in exact degree. AS2000 being the two headed microphone, you hear more what is going on around the room. It is so good at picking up nuances, cues, tiny vibrating sound that when add up translate to dimensionality, layers and depth. AF1 P on the other hand is like a mono point shoot mic. You get this sound popping out of darkness. It is like mono microphone enhancing Ack voice while lower down the volume of other noises around. So the sound that AF1 P picks up is always more pronounced with enhanced dynamic while its darkness of back ground block out nuances and cues. Just listen to the first notes of guitar in the two videos you will hear more strings vibrating with the AS2000 but less dynamic on plug than AF1P. When Clapton says "See if you can spot this," you don't just hear him you hear his voice reflecting the hall. Yes, what I just wrote is exaggerated. Exaggeration gets point across easier imo. AF1P also gives excellent spatial cues and ambient. The AS2000 just does it a few notches better. The AF1P is always stronger in bass than the AS2000. What sounds more natural? That's for you to decide. Listening to records of different eras a lot will make you understand how they engineered sound these days too. And it is no different to audio gears.

Kind regards,
Tang
It's almost like you are trying to hide "The AF1P is always stronger in bass than the AS2000. What sounds more natural? That's for you to decide. Listening to records of different eras a lot will make you understand how they engineered sound these days too. And it is no different to audio gears." under a mountain of irrelevant stuff
 

dminches

Active Member
Oct 22, 2011
837
79
28
This is not really a variable. If my Samsung on a stupid Youtube can let you hear differences, it means the differences is multiply by X factor more in real. Video can be very useful when you focus your hearing only on the differences that you hear on A from B in the same system. Using a hand phone actually is like doing a mono recording like I just wrote to Peter above. If I use a two heads recorder, you will even hear more ambient in my room.
One can definitely hear differences but the limitations of a Samsung recording could be accentuating differences or masking them. For example, these tablets are very poor in capturing bass. Thus, one of the 2 setups could be bass light which wouldn’t be evident in the comparison because the stronger bass isn’t being captured.

I definitely can hear a difference in the 2 recordings but I can’t say my impressions would be the same if I was actually in the room.

Road trip!
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
5,584
466
83
North Shore of Boston
Tang, you keep describing the differences between the two turntables. Are you saying if you switched the arm and cartridge from one table to the other the differences you describe would remain the same and that the influence of the turntable is greater than the influence of the cartridge cable and tonearm together?

The differences I hear between the two videos is roughly similar to the differences I hear between my airtight supreme and MSL signature gold cartridges. I could’ve listened to the two videos without knowing anything about them and believed that all you did was switch between two cartridges on the same table and arm. We are really talking about an entire vinyl chain at the front and being completely different in each case. And many people don’t like the MSL cartridges while preferring the airtight versions.

I have no doubt what you hear in your room is different from what we hear through our computers or headphones. I’m just trying to describe the differences I hear and I appreciate you supplementing that by adding what you hear.
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
2,932
1,698
113
Bangkok
Tang, you keep describing the differences between the two turntables. Are you saying if you switched the arm and cartridge from one table to the other the differences you describe would remain the same and that the influence of the turntable is greater than the influence of the cartridge cable and tonearm together?

The differences I hear between the two videos is roughly similar to the differences I hear between my airtight supreme and MSL signature gold cartridges. I could’ve listened to the two videos without knowing anything about them and believed that all you did was switch between two cartridges on the same table and arm. We are really talking about an entire vinyl chain at the front and being completely different in each case. And many people don’t like the MSL cartridges while preferring the airtight versions.

I have no doubt what you hear in your room is different from what we hear through our computers or headphones. I’m just trying to describe the differences I hear and I appreciate you supplementing that by adding what you hear.
Yes Peter. It is the tt. When you live and play with your equipments hard enough, you can sort out what characters come from what even when it is no apple to apple but play in your system. If you have a chance to visit Christian again have him play both As2000 and Af1 or visit David. Funny all three of us have AF1.

Kind regards,
Tang

Added: The difference between MSL Platinum and Opus1 is only minor and not in the area of info retrieval. MSL Platinum is excellent and considerably less expensive than Opus1.
 
Last edited:
Dec 20, 2014
212
1
18
FRANCE
In my opinion AS2000 is better sounding. Only my opinion. AS2000 is also simpler. I don’t trust air bearing and pump that inevitably will , at one moment or another, necessitate fixing.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
5,584
466
83
North Shore of Boston

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
8,786
945
113
E. England
Yeah, but it's so quiet and effective, you don't even know its there. Maybe that's why Mssr C missed it LOL.
 
Last edited:
Jan 16, 2013
539
300
63
NYC
Here is the difference between two tt setups. The AF1P and AS2000. Variables are only on arm/cart combo. AF1P with MSL Plat/Axiom. AS2000 with Opus1/SME. I now listen to AS setup 95% of the time.

AF1P/MSL/Axiom


AS2000/Opus1/SME

Tang,

Thank you so much for making the two videos. Your room is so gorgeous and your system is to die for. I like both of the TT's sound, different, as if you played two other top tier TT's with your system, they all would sound different.

I enjoyed going back and forth and back and forth:)....thx again. (PS and now I see why you requested the Layla video, I switched back and forth with all three videos....fun.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. A place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss existing and new audio products, music servers, music streamers and computer audio, digital to audio convertors (DACS), turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel to reel, speakers, headphones, tube amplifiers and solid state amplification. Founded in 2010 What's Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing