An Explanation of the Term "Suspension of Disbelief"

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, do you really want every post to be qualified with an IMO, or perhaps even better, IMHO? This is a humble site, after all. I thought we got beyond that here and presume that whatever someone posts is in his or her opinion.

Peter, the flack you take on the Natural Sound subject has to do with the restrictively singular tone of your use of it. and that some inference of exclusivity or limitation of it's use otherwise.

hence my view that it needs to be clear it's just your opinion, and in my opinion not as restrictive as you make it to be. you infer these views are facts. we know they are not facts.

yet, thinking about it, you are correct that i should ignore that lack of 'in my opinion' going forward out of respect for you. i will try to not go there again.

We were all duped by Madfloyd in my system thread when he quoted ChatGBT and then only fessed up later after the pushback to the robot opinion. Now, the practice of quoting a robot is becoming more overt. Like Fransisco wrote, I do not like the direction this is going. Are we friends and fellow hobbyists sharing our thoughts more or less freely, or are we quoting some robot now for some amalgamation of thoughts from others?

I disagree that the phrases "natural sound" and "suspension of disbelief" are loose terms implying similar overlapping perceptions. The former describes the sound one hears if and only if it reminds him of the sound of actual instruments. The latter is an attempt to describe an experience, a state of mind, a head space, which may be the result of what one hears. I do not see the overlap.

i see where your use of the word 'only' as a qualifier for natural, then pushes you to then isolate the 'latter' into a different thing. it's not different. 'only' is your choice, not a universal way to view it.

it's not like 'natural sound' is a fact, and 'suspension of disbelief' is a merely a state of mind. both are perceptions. maybe natural is a more general term, and suspension of disbelief a more specific experiential effect. but they are both subjective views of reproduced sound as music....and our mind's views of how real it might be to us. and inter-related.

Is that your opinion that no one owns the territory of....Just kidding. There is no need to qualify that comment as your opinion. It is clear to me that it is.

your approach of choosing narrow viewpoints is yours.

 

[Elliot G.]

simply think the phrase is really clumsy. Apparently, I am not alone in thinking this. I have never listened to music where my companions say they have suspended their disbelief, not in the concert hall, nor when listening to any audio system. Did you tell the designer of your speakers when auditioning them that you were "suspending your disbelief"? And what about the "willing" part that Fransisco mentioned about the original use of the phrase

no one says that while they are listening, this is a way to try to describe an event a feeling. During the event there are smiles, feelings of joy and the occasional HOLLY Shit that might be exclaimed. My friends and listening buddies are not stuffed shirts but rather they are loving what they hear and can enjoy the time they spend in the "time Machine" The words that are spoken are always hours or days after trying to express this sensation towards and for others.
It is a reviewers job to try to find the vocabulary or define the words, not mine, however many are just reusing the phrases that were there before and if they have no real experience in the sensation then this is useless , on that I agree.

It is the same in many things if you havent had the feeling or the experience of something magical, whether its food or wine or sex or whatever the words will sound like BS. I get that however that doesn't mean that the event didnt happen or that it was something that some others have not been part of.
BTW this never happens at shows and very few can make it happen in the regular world IMO

 

[PeterA]

When I was much younger the crew I used to hang with Harry Pearson, Mike Kay, Arnie Nudell, Karen, Bruise Brisson, Dahlquist, and others used to discuss this.
Harry and I were listening buddies and we discussed the "time Machine effect." This was not that Carnegie Hall for example could become your listening room, although customers wanted that, but rather that your system i.e. the time machine could transport you on occasion. If everything sounded like it was in Carnegie Hall that is obviously a coloration but if the system can take you there when the recording was done ( Harry Belafonte Live) or take you to Red Rocks or Lincoln center then it was doing something unique.
This Illusion, yes an illusion, that someone is playing for you and it feels real is the willing suspension of disbelief.
I have always wondered why this is fleeting? It doesnt happen all the time even in the same room and same system. So why does it disappear?
I again felt that there seemed to be some convergence of factors that may have influenced it.
Perhaps my mood and the people I am with
Perhaps all the varibles aligning- electricity,atmosphere, gear temperature whatever but it didnt happen every time I listened at HP, or Home or anywhere but when the moon was in the seventh house and jupiter aligned with mars something came and made the time machine work,
That ghost is worth chasing and trying to define what it is or isn't by words that have different meanings to different people , among them those who either don't get it, haven't experienced it or don't believe its possible is IMO futile.

Elliot, I like your post. Could you talk a bit about this word "willing" that you use before "suspension of disbelief"? For me, this state of mind, the experience, that you are describing is not voluntary or mindful. It just happens when, as you point out, things align just right. I do not sit there and willfully forget where I am or what I am doing. For me, it is an unwilling experience in which I imagine I am listening to a live performance, or I feel that I simply am doing so. Thank you.

 

[Elliot G.]

and a shot of schnapps the way this thread is going

or other substances whether liquid, solid or gas

 

[PeterA]

depends on the apple. in the State of Washington we see lots of varieties.

mother nature has lots of different shades of red.

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Precisely my point Mike: Lots of shades, or different degrees, of red, but it is still a red apple.

 

[PeterA]

I responded to this already. Please see Post #95: "Willing" is a necessary (and presumed) component of the abstract concept of "suspension of disbelief."

I saw that. The word "willing" does not seem necessary, and I do not think it is presumed. It was written and included in Fransisco's reference to Toole. You omitted it in your thread title and in your question to the robot. And the robot omitted it in his answer. Elliot did not omit it.

This whole thread is an attempt to explain a phrase. How can you be so casual about this point? The whole question for me is whether or not the process of reaching this state of mind is voluntary (willed by the listener), or if it just happens when everything is in place to allow it to happen.

 

[microstrip]

I saw that. The word "willing" does not seem necessary, and I do not think it is presumed. It was written and included in Fransisco's reference to Toole. You omitted it in your thread title and in your question to the robot. And the robot omitted it in his answer. Elliot did not omit it.

This whole thread is an attempt to explain a phrase. How can you be so casual about this point? The whole question for me is whether or not the process of reaching this state of mind is voluntary (willed by the listener), or if it just happens when everything is in place to allow it to happen.

Yes, Peter. I think that "Willing" was simply dropped without any precise intention just to simplify the use of the expression. However it re-acquires a particular interest when addressing the high-end.

I think that in order to discuss it we need to consider the common stereo sound reproduction and the high-end sound reproduction as separate entities and free it from the ChatGPT mess. I will come back to the subject at a later time.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The whole question for me is whether or not the process of reaching this state of mind is voluntary (willed by the listener), or if it just happens when everything is in place to allow it to happen.

You are focusing on an interesting and semantically complicated point.

It is not "willed." We cannot will -- we cannot hypnotize -- ourselves into truly believing we are in a concert hall instead of our listening room.

The "willing" goes to the abstract idea that we will allow ourselves to pretend that we are hearing live music in our listening rooms. We will relax our knowledge of the reality, the fact, that we are are in our listening rooms and not a concert hall.

 

[stehno]

An Explanation of the Term "Suspension of Disbelief":

Meaningless hype that sounds so good to some.

 

[Elliot G.]

You are focusing on an interesting and semantically complicated point.

It is not "willed." We cannot will -- we cannot hypnotize -- ourselves into truly believing we are in a concert hall instead of our listening room.

The "willing" goes to the abstract idea that we will allow ourselves to pretend that we are hearing live music in our listening rooms. We will relax our knowledge of the reality, the fact, that we are are in our listening rooms and not a concert hall.

Lets be unwilling to enjoy the music I am sure that will help us enjoy it more .

 

[Ron Resnick]

what causes the suspension of disbelief?

I think the suspension of disbelief is facilitated by emotionally-engaging satisfaction of the particular sonic cues each of us subjectively and idiosyncratically selects for our stereo systems which most directly trigger in our brains our memories of the sound of live music.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I saw that. The word "willing" does not seem necessary, and I do not think it is presumed. It was written and included in Fransisco's reference to Toole. You omitted it in your thread title and in your question to the robot. And the robot omitted it in his answer. Elliot did not omit it.

This whole thread is an attempt to explain a phrase. How can you be so casual about this point? The whole question for me is whether or not the process of reaching this state of mind is voluntary (willed by the listener), or if it just happens when everything is in place to allow it to happen.

it's a realization of somewhere you are or have been. the degree of awareness of this occurrence follows no script.

like 'you had me at hello'......to "here" and "there". sometimes it can be continual. but not always. is that our minds variability? or the relative synergy of the reproduction? dunno.

 

[bonzo75]

I think the suspension of disbelief is facilitated by emotionally-engaging satisfaction of the particular sonic cues each of us subjectively and idiosyncratically selects for our stereo systems which most directly trigger in our brains our memories of the sound of live music.

i agree with this definition. My only beef with you on this is that you get it on systems you don’t like which I don’t understand

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Ron,

You are killing any forum discussion / debate using ChatGPT to start a thread.

ChatGPT will extensively summarize all the common place and clichés about the subject, surely including some true information. Sorry to say, but I find such practice insulting to our participation - I do not consider ChatGPT as an effective member and I will not spend my time discussing with a machine .

I would happily accept however if someone quotes parts from a ChatGPT answer with proper identification and builds a personnel argument analyzing its answer. All IMO, YMMV.

Bye.

 

[Ron Resnick]

i agree with this definition.

My only beef with you on this is that you get it on systems you don’t like which I don’t understand

I am confused by this, because if I don't like the system I am not going to be able to reach even low suspension of disbelief.

I think maybe you're just more black and white about this stuff? You know I'm more forgiving than you are on some systems.

 

[bonzo75]

I am confused by this, because if I don't like the system I am not going to be able to reach even low suspension of disbelief.

on the other thread you argued a system you do not like can give you better suspension of disbelief than your car stereo

 

[caesar]

I feel bad for people that have not had that audio sensation or as we called them GMIA's in their room or home. For as long as I have been listening I have loved when the moon is in the seventh house and Jupiter aligns with Mars and I got a GMIA ( Great moment in audio) in my space.
Did I think I was in a concert hall, probably not really, but I was so involved and enjoying it I just didnt care.
This is what I live for and love and to others that don't I am not sure what it is that you want from your system.

This is the State of Flow many of us seek

 

[Ron Resnick]

on the other thread you argued a system you do not like can give you better suspension of disbelief than your car stereo

Oh, yes, thank you.

One of my personal cues for believability is that I am sitting, indoors, in a room. If I am sitting in a listening room, I can imagine that I am sitting in a concert hall. Sitting in a car doesn't satisfy that hurdle for me personally. If I am sitting in a car I just cannot imagine that I am sitting, indoors, in a concert hall.

Two of the main reasons I might not like the sound of a stereo are brightness or edginess, and the sensation that I am listening to two small boxes. I can achieve greater (albeit low) suspension of disbelief with a bright sounding stereo sitting, indoors, in a listening room than I can sitting in a car listening to a car stereo.

 

[microstrip]

I think the suspension of disbelief is facilitated by emotionally-engaging satisfaction of the particular sonic cues each of us subjectively and idiosyncratically selects for our stereo systems which most directly trigger in our brains our memories of the sound of live music.

Or is it the suspension of disbelief that creates the emotionally engaging satisfaction?

Considering classic music, we can't forget it is in great part an intellectual activity - mechanisms could be different.

 

[bonzo75]

Oh, yes, thank you.

One of my personal cues for believability is that I am sitting, indoors, in a room. If I am sitting in a listening room, I can imagine that I am sitting in a concert hall. Sitting in a car doesn't satisfy that hurdle for me personally. If I am sitting in a car I just cannot imagine that I am sitting, indoors, in a concert hall.

Sit Indoors in front of a sound bar