An Explanation of the Term "Suspension of Disbelief"

[morricab]

Suspension of disbelief: The sensation that you are, for however brief a time period, listening to the real thing rather than a reproduction.

IMO, it has nothing to do with emotional engagement. It is the stripping away of artifice to the point where there is nothing reaching your ears where you say "Ah ha! that sounds like reproduction due to it's synthetic reproduced nature".

I have attended many a live performance where it was primarily a cerebral engagement to the music and not emotional hardly at all...and vice versa. Live music NEVER guarantees emotional engagement and so should not be part of the discourse of suspension of disbelief.

You will NEVER reach complete suspension of disbelief because you KNOW you are listening to a reproduction. However, you can get the feeling from a very good reproduction that it is so much like a real live instrument(s) and/or voice(s) in space that you might be fooled if you didn't know where it was coming from.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Just look at how freely the term suspension of disbelief is mixed and exchanged for emotional engagement and sonic heaven.

This is a curious argument. English is a complicated language with many words that have similar or overlapping concepts.

The fact that one can describe something in two or three different ways does not invalidate any of those two are three different descriptors.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes, really Al. Never once have I sat listening to a stereo with anybody who said, “you know what, I am now suspending my disbelief.” The phrase is awkward and requires further explanation. Ron could not describe it, he had to go to some artificially intelligent robot to describe it for us.

People might be offended or insulted by the phrase natural sound, but I think it’s meaning is pretty clear. One big difference is that natural sound is in fact binary. A system either sounds natural or it does not. There are different levels of natural sound, including really inexpensive well done old digital. Even the sound of some YouTube videos is natural. The whole idea about suspension of disbelief is vague. Ron claimed that suspension is never complete. It’s a spectrum. It is not binary. It’s a very different concept.

Just look at how freely the term suspension of disbelief is mixed and exchanged for emotional engagement and sonic heaven. Read Lee’s post up thread. He describes many things he does when listening to his system to try to make sense of the phrase. He also felt compelled to bring up SET and horns to describe his experience.

Natural sound is a conscious observation from the listener. He thinks something either sounds natural or does not. It reminds him of the sound of actual instruments or it does not. It is reliant on his experiences and memory. If the system sounds natural, it reminds the listener of the experience he or she had when listening to live instruments.

you forgot, "in my opinion" as a preface.

my opinion is that natural sound and suspension of disbelief are loose terms implying similar overlapping perceptions, you need elements of both to attain either. and both have levels and nuances to them. they both involve feelings and biases. nothing completely objective about either.

no one owns the territory of what either of these might mean. not questioning your right to claim how things are. fire away.

just my 2 cents.

 

[microstrip]

I am subject to the forum's rules just like everybody else. If I ever slip a gear and I post something that you think violates the Terms of Service I encourage you to report it.

Surely. But as you are the one who owns the forum you assume the responsibility for the TOS, can modify it and must take the decisions about aspects that are not included in TOS. We are surely thankful for your desions that helped to keep this forum in a critical moment but you have responsibilities towards of members that posted hundreds of thousands posts.

Your decision to start a thread just posting an unrecommended answer of ChatGPT asking members to comment it is not a inoffensive decision. ChatGPT become an effective member of WBF.

BTW, IMO imitating the ostrich behavior never solved problems. Soon or later you must take a decision concerning AI. Perhaps you can start a thread on it - if you want to hear people on the subject.

 

[microstrip]

Yes, really Al. Never once have I sat listening to a stereo with anybody who said, “you know what, I am now suspending my disbelief.” The phrase is awkward and requires further explanation. Ron could not describe it, he had to go to some artificially intelligent robot to describe it for us.

People might be offended or insulted by the phrase natural sound, but I think it’s meaning is pretty clear. One big difference is that natural sound is in fact binary. A system either sounds natural or it does not. There are different levels of natural sound, including really inexpensive well done old digital. Even the sound of some YouTube videos is natural. The whole idea about suspension of disbelief is vague. Ron claimed that suspension is never complete. It’s a spectrum. It is not binary. It’s a very different concept.

Just look at how freely the term suspension of disbelief is mixed and exchanged for emotional engagement and sonic heaven. Read Lee’s post up thread. He describes many things he does when listening to his system to try to make sense of the phrase. He also felt compelled to bring up SET and horns to describe his experience.

Natural sound is a conscious observation from the listener. He thinks something either sounds natural or does not. It reminds him of the sound of actual instruments or it does not. It is reliant on his experiences and memory. If the system sounds natural, it reminds the listener of the experience he or she had when listening to live instruments.

Suspension of disbelief involves forgetting or willingly doing something. Describing something as natural sounding is simply an observation by the listener. It is not a goal in and of itself. The goal is to have a listening experience that reminds one of being in the concert hall or otherwise of listening to actual instruments. Suspension of disbelief seems to me to be an attempt to describe what the experience is not.

When I go to a concert hall and listen to live instruments I’m learning about the sound of those live instruments and the experience of listening to live music. I don’t think about black backgrounds, pinpoint imaging, stark outlines. I don’t think of some belief that I’m willingly suspending. This thread might be an interesting intellectual exercise for those who are trying to understand concepts, but I don’t hear people besides Ron talking like this in the real world. And we need a machine to scour the Internet to tell us what we can’t explain ourselves. I think that’s pretty weird.

The words “believable” and “convincing” make sense when trying to describe what you hear from the audio system. Their meanings are instantly clear. They describe the listener’s opinion. They do not describe with the listeners impression is not. Why not just use simple words to convey meaning rather than some convoluted expression which causes confusion and is never actually used by anyone?

IMO this is not the place to discuss natural sound, I will skip it. However I will note that your answer is built around a poor and incorrect definition of "suspension of disbelief" created by a bot, that biased all the discussion. Remember that you will never prove anything to a bot! "Suspension of disbelief" is an useful term, when used properly.

As usual, the arguments of your elaborated answer are mostly based in an incorrect interpretation of the audiophile glossary, that you want to redefine.

 

[microstrip]

(...) You are a big fan of Karen Sumner's philosophies and views about high-end audio. She uses this expression fluidly and naturally. Here are two examples from her wonderful essays: (...)

I appreciate the lot of big fans of a few sentences of Karen Summer's "philosophies" and completely ignore her whole texts and practice, that surely would give a better understanding of her words.

As could be expected, her sound reproduction perspective and preferences is strongly kinked to the cables her company develops, manufactures and sell. I am lucky to have a friend who owns complete sets of Transparent Opus Magnun and I have large experience with TA cables, I can easily see what she is addressing with her words.

Just to say that IMO Karen Summer is not a partisan of Peter "natural sound" - just the opposite. If you have doubts look at the TA factory system and her own system. But yes, she seems to love music.

 

[Elliot G.]

PeterA: Why not just use simple words to convey meaning rather than some convoluted expression which causes confusion and is never actually used by anyone?

Why do you think suspension of disbelief is "never actually used by anyone"? How in the world did you come to this conclusion? It is a commonly used term.

You are a big fan of Karen Sumner's philosophies and views about high-end audio. She uses this expression fluidly and naturally. Here are two examples from her wonderful essays:

"We could serve these more recent acolytes better by providing actual descriptions of what we hear that helps us suspend our disbelief and invites us to engage more emotionally with music at home." (April 26, 2022) (in a post "Liked")

For our industry to move closer to our goal of helping our customers suspend their disbelief that they are only listening to a hifi, more manufacturers need to grow beyond depending on the press to build their notoriety. (March 9, 2023) (in a post TimA "Liked")

Obviously Karen thinks the concept is not weird. Obviously Karen thinks the concept has merit and explanatory power. I think I am in impeccable company in my use of this term, this concept.

I see in your posts responding to her essays no objections, complaints or inquiries about her use of this term.

Some of us actually know Karen, call Karen a friend and have listened with Karen in her beautiful rooms and know that she does use the term. So did HP so do most of the very serious audio people I know and knew. The feeling one gets when these GMIA's occur is magical and fleeting. It does and it is something that I and many I know have chased and tried to demonstrate and recreate as often as possible.
It doesn't happen everywhere and it can involve and should involve "natural sound" as this feeling can't happen with crappy UN natural sound. It does not mean the same thing and it will not do the same things and if one has not experienced this then I find it difficult to understand how they can argue against it. Oh wait they are Audiophiles of course they can.

 

[Lee]

Maybe when your system already defaults you into a deep focus on engagement in the music and not thinking about the gear or the sound that you’re not surprised when you notice that’s what’s always going on. If it’s inconsistent I figure then you might feel the need to come up with a term for it as some kind of threshold objective. It’s like when people do a system change and suddenly feel a surprising emotional connection to the music… like emotional engagement with music isn’t what they experience normally when they are playing good music.

I do struggle to analyse my system these days because it isn’t something I am unconsciously drawn into doing and haven’t for quite some time now. Focus on the music connection has been my primary aim for years and I do focus on connecting with the best music performances these days as my objective when listening. I think this being caught up by the music’s gestalt has become just an expectation norm. I guess where you continuously look to becomes what you then regularly see.

Well said Tao.

 

[PeterA]

If there are "different levels," then, by definition, it is not "binary."

How red is an apple Ron? We still say the apple is red or it is not.

 

[Elliot G.]

When I was much younger the crew I used to hang with Harry Pearson, Mike Kay, Arnie Nudell, Karen, Bruise Brisson, Dahlquist, and others used to discuss this.
Harry and I were listening buddies and we discussed the "time Machine effect." This was not that Carnegie Hall for example could become your listening room, although customers wanted that, but rather that your system i.e. the time machine could transport you on occasion. If everything sounded like it was in Carnegie Hall that is obviously a coloration but if the system can take you there when the recording was done ( Harry Belafonte Live) or take you to Red Rocks or Lincoln center then it was doing something unique.
This Illusion, yes an illusion, that someone is playing for you and it feels real is the willing suspension of disbelief.
I have always wondered why this is fleeting? It doesnt happen all the time even in the same room and same system. So why does it disappear?
I again felt that there seemed to be some convergence of factors that may have influenced it.
Perhaps my mood and the people I am with
Perhaps all the varibles aligning- electricity,atmosphere, gear temperature whatever but it didnt happen every time I listened at HP, or Home or anywhere but when the moon was in the seventh house and jupiter aligned with mars something came and made the time machine work,
That ghost is worth chasing and trying to define what it is or isn't by words that have different meanings to different people , among them those who either don't get it, haven't experienced it or don't believe its possible is IMO futile.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

How red is an apple Ron? We still say the apple is red or it is not.

depends on the apple. in the State of Washington we see lots of varieties.

mother nature has lots of different shades of red.

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[Ron Resnick]

your answer is built around a poor and incorrect definition of "suspension of disbelief" created by a bot,

I am still waiting for your preferred definition.

 

[PeterA]

PeterA: Why not just use simple words to convey meaning rather than some convoluted expression which causes confusion and is never actually used by anyone?

Why do you think suspension of disbelief is "never actually used by anyone"? How in the world did you come to this conclusion? It is a commonly used term.

You are a big fan of Karen Sumner's philosophies and views about high-end audio. She uses this expression fluidly and naturally. Here are two examples from her wonderful essays:

"We could serve these more recent acolytes better by providing actual descriptions of what we hear that helps us suspend our disbelief and invites us to engage more emotionally with music at home." (April 26, 2022) (in a post "Liked")

For our industry to move closer to our goal of helping our customers suspend their disbelief that they are only listening to a hifi, more manufacturers need to grow beyond depending on the press to build their notoriety. (March 9, 2023) (in a post TimA "Liked")

Obviously Karen thinks the concept is not weird. Obviously Karen thinks the concept has merit and explanatory power. I think I am in impeccable company in my use of this term, this concept.

I see in your posts responding to her essays no objections, complaints or inquiries about her use of this term.

You declare that you use the phrase Emotional Engagement just like Jim Smith does. Now you say Karen Sumner uses the phrase "suspension of disbelief" and that you are in good company. You are a reviewer for an online publication, and the other two are also in the industry. You are using these phrases to convey meaning to your readers. That is all fine Ron.

I simply think the phrase is really clumsy. Apparently, I am not alone in thinking this. I have never listened to music where my companions say they have suspended their disbelief, not in the concert hall, nor when listening to any audio system. Did you tell the designer of your speakers when auditioning them that you were "suspending your disbelief"? And what about the "willing" part that Fransisco mentioned about the original use of the phrase?

I like Karen Sumner's essays. I do not have to agree with every phrase she uses, nor do I have to understand or relate to her every sentence. There is a lot of substance to her essays. I am responding here and objecting to this particular phrase and your opening post which is an amalgamation of search results from an AI robot scouring the net for some definition of a weird phrase.

 

[Ron Resnick]

And what about the "willing" part that Fransisco mentioned about the original use of the phrase?

I responded to this already. Please see Post #95: "Willing" is a necessary (and presumed) component of the abstract concept of "suspension of disbelief."

 

[Ron Resnick]

I do not have to agree with every phrase she uses, nor do I have to understand or relate to her every sentence.

true!

 

[PeterA]

This is a curious argument. English is a complicated language with many words that have similar or overlapping concepts.

The fact that one can describe something in two or three different ways does not invalidate any of those two are three different descriptors.

They are not invalidated. They are valid ways of people describing what they think/feel/imagine/want. I am saying it is wrong to equate them. See Brad's comment above. I am referring to what Lee posted, implying that suspension of disbelief is what gets him to his "sonic heaven". That is describing a cause and then an effect. I presume that is his state of mind, a head space in which he finds himself, if the system allows him to forget his beliefs (er knowledge, he knows) that he is sitting listening to reproduced music.

 

[microstrip]

I am still waiting for your preferred definition.

You will wait for long. I will not enter your strategy of comparing definitions. I have now posted , in an answer to an human member, my findings about the subject. I preferred to comment a quote from a well identified reputed source.
If interested in more formal definitions, I suggest you ask ChatGPT in different ways - it will do its best to please you.

But I am always happy to answer your or any member questions.

 

[PeterA]

you forgot, "in my opinion" as a preface.

my opinion is that natural sound and suspension of disbelief are loose terms implying similar overlapping perceptions, you need elements of both to attain either. and both have levels and nuances to them. they both involve feelings and biases. nothing completely objective about either.

no one owns the territory of what either of these might mean. not questioning your right to claim how things are. fire away.

just my 2 cents.

Mike, do you really want every post to be qualified with an IMO, or perhaps even better, IMHO? This is a humble site, after all. I thought we got beyond that here and presume that whatever someone posts is in his or her opinion. We were all duped by Madfloyd in my system thread when he quoted ChatGBT and then only fessed up later after the pushback to the robot opinion. Now, the practice of quoting a robot is becoming more overt. Like Fransisco wrote, I do not like the direction this is going. Are we friends and fellow hobbyists sharing our thoughts more or less freely, or are we quoting some robot now for some amalgamation of thoughts from others?

I disagree that the phrases "natural sound" and "suspension of disbelief" are loose terms implying similar overlapping perceptions. The former describes the sound one hears if and only if it reminds him of the sound of actual instruments. The latter is an attempt to describe an experience, a state of mind, a head space, which may be the result of what one hears. I do not see the overlap.

Is that your opinion that no one owns the territory of....Just kidding. There is no need to qualify that comment as your opinion. It is clear to me that it is.

 

[microstrip]

(...) This Illusion, yes an illusion, that someone is playing for you and it feels real is the willing suspension of disbelief.
I have always wondered why this is fleeting? It doesnt happen all the time even in the same room and same system. So why does it disappear?
I again felt that there seemed to be some convergence of factors that may have influenced it.
Perhaps my mood and the people I am with
Perhaps all the varibles aligning- electricity,atmosphere, gear temperature whatever but it didnt happen every time I listened at HP, or Home or anywhere but when the moon was in the seventh house and jupiter aligned with mars something came and made the time machine work,
That ghost is worth chasing and trying to define what it is or isn't by words that have different meanings to different people , among them those who either don't get it, haven't experienced it or don't believe its possible is IMO futile.

This is the interesting aspect - what causes the suspension of disbelief?

Unfortunately there is no easy answer or unique recipe for it, at best we can exchange experiences according to our preferences and listening conditions.

And yes, audio schoolars such as F. Toole also addressed this aspect - it will not happen every time, but a proper room and system will maximize the frequecny of it. IMO audiophiles should add attitude to the room and system.

 

[steve williams]

IMO audiophiles should add attitude to the room and system.

and a shot of schnapps the way this thread is going