And Just When You Think It Couldn't Get Any Worse
- Thread starter Steve Williams
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garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
As a kid growing up in the colonies, I was taught Aesop's Fables as lessons to life. What's happening now is like the Belly and the Members. May be it's just an outsider's perspective, and I'm totally wrong, but if you don't feed the belly, how will the head and the hands work?
When the top 1% of the country earn more than the bottom 90%, but pay low (or no) taxes with all the loopholes, it's like the Flies and the Honeypot.
May be what's needed is the bottom 90% of the country to get together to hire some lobbyists in DC so as to have their voices heard. Who pays the Piper calls the Tune (OK, so that's Hans Christian Andersen and not Aesop).
When the top 1% of the country earn more than the bottom 90%, but pay low (or no) taxes with all the loopholes, it's like the Flies and the Honeypot.
May be what's needed is the bottom 90% of the country to get together to hire some lobbyists in DC so as to have their voices heard. Who pays the Piper calls the Tune (OK, so that's Hans Christian Andersen and not Aesop).
Uh, the stats I read say the top 10% pay most of the taxes in dollar amounts, though as a percentage of income it may be less than mine. What's that old saw about figures? From another MO boy, I believe... 
I think the pessimistic Mr. Shilling may be underestimating the problem, or at least the cause. It's not just a matter of over supply; I don't think housing has hit bottom yet, period. The bubble didn't really burst, it just shrank. And that's very bad news for a lot of Americans and a huge segment of the economy. Portfolios are up. Jobs are not recovering well. Luxury goods and real estate are down. And where is inflation? Food and fuel. It's a good time to be rich, rough duty for everyone else. Anyone getting jittery yet? Anyone already pull everything out of the market?
Tim
Tim
Uh, the stats I read say the top 10% pay most of the taxes in dollar amounts, though as a percentage of income it may be less than mine. What's that old saw about figures? From another MO boy, I believe...
There's a HUGE gap between the top 10% and the top 1%. Lots of folks in the top 10% are paying the top income tax rate on serious salary/bonus income. That rate is the lowest it has been in a long, long, time, but it still adds up to a lot of money. By the time you get to the top 1%, "income" is not payroll deduction, it is a highly fungible concept. Many folks up there at the top get the majority of their income from portfolios that are taxed as capital gains, not income, and pay a much lower % than the simple working stiff just making a half a million or so in salary plus a $40k bonus. And that's if they don't have enough shelters to prevent them from paying much at all. You also have to consider who the government serves, who gets the biggest benefit from the money government spends and whether or not it makes sense that they pay for that benefit. Yes, we all drive on the same roads, but who gets the benefit from the billions we spend propping up our economic interests in the Middle East, for example? The WalMart clerk filling up his Hundai at $4 a gallon? The corporate VP with a handful of mutal funds in his 401(k)? Even if he's got some energy stocks in his portfolio, the odds that he's getting his money back on his tax investment in the military is pretty slim. The top 1%? Follow the money.
Tim
Hmmm... As a simple working stiff I make far, far less than $500k, but do have a stock portfolio so get to pay that capital gains on those earnings. On stocks paid for with post-taxed dollars, of course.
Of larger concern to me is the huge jump in education (about 30% in under three years here in CO) that is far outstripping our ability to pay.
And so forth and so on... I am not at all qualified to discuss, let alone debate, the tax situation. I do get annoyed by a federal gov't that seems to spend what it wants, and a congress that exempts themselves from the burden, whilst the rest of us have to balance our budget every day.
Of larger concern to me is the huge jump in education (about 30% in under three years here in CO) that is far outstripping our ability to pay.
And so forth and so on... I am not at all qualified to discuss, let alone debate, the tax situation. I do get annoyed by a federal gov't that seems to spend what it wants, and a congress that exempts themselves from the burden, whilst the rest of us have to balance our budget every day.
Growing up under a dictatorship where trade was seriously limited. You guys have no idea what it meant to us to have something that was Made in USA. It meant quality and durability. Today brands are American but manufacturing is not. Now you wonder where your economy went. Well from an outsider looking in, I'll tell you. It is still there. The world number two is many times smaller in GDP. The US brands that have manufacturing outside are still repatriating that net savings and net income baby. The question is, how do you get them to reinvest THAT into job generating operations. Incentives? Maybe. How about something more obvious? Buy local.
Yeah, me too, Don. I was just trying to play to the crowd.
If you're just a working stiff why are you paying capital gains on those earnings? You should have your investments in tax-deferred vehicles. Unless you have investments and gains beyond what you need for retirement, gains you're taking now, in which case the gains are income, and we come full circle...
Tim
I have a simple solution: Tax foreign manufacturers, whether they're US-based companies or not, for access to the American market. And no, I don't mean import tariffs, I mean literally tax the manufacturers for everything they sell to US customers. Our consumer market is our greatest international trading asset, and we're just giving it away.
Tim
You do. The problem I see affecting your balance of trade isn't the WTO approved duties but rather the artificial exchange rates between the US and the number one holder of US debt. The first round of QE was a warning shot that the US has no qualms about devaluing the dollar and as thus devaluing any currency directly pegged to it. Did you guys notice how many trade disputes were settled immediately after? Now we're seeing a possible round 2. I'm betting we'll see some markets for certain US good begin to open up shortly.
Personally I am not a big fan of protectionism. It makes local manufacturers complacent, inefficient and devoid of any urge to improve. You'd end up with Yugos. There was some form of protectionism (clue: not trade) in the US auto-industry and look what happened there. I do think however that all things being equal. I you want to pick your country back up support your countryman. When buying a pair of New Balance sneakers at the local Sports Authority, buy the one Made in USA even if it is a few dollars more expensive and leave the other ones on the shelf. You've just contributed to two or more hours of hourly wage to your economy. For as long as everbody continues to flock to Wal-Mart, K-Mart or any other Mart for cheap quantity over quality, the only place the US can make up the slack is in trade and services. The US will not go down the drain, it will just reach a level of equilibrium less lofty than that enjoyed in the past hundred years or so. To stay number one with a bullet, the US has just got to start producing again. Enough with producing houses. That boom was caused by the increase in divorce rates anyway (I'm sort of kidding but do look at the stats) Everyday consumables is where it is at.
Personally I am not a big fan of protectionism. It makes local manufacturers complacent, inefficient and devoid of any urge to improve. You'd end up with Yugos. There was some form of protectionism (clue: not trade) in the US auto-industry and look what happened there. I do think however that all things being equal. I you want to pick your country back up support your countryman. When buying a pair of New Balance sneakers at the local Sports Authority, buy the one Made in USA even if it is a few dollars more expensive and leave the other ones on the shelf. You've just contributed to two or more hours of hourly wage to your economy. For as long as everbody continues to flock to Wal-Mart, K-Mart or any other Mart for cheap quantity over quality, the only place the US can make up the slack is in trade and services. The US will not go down the drain, it will just reach a level of equilibrium less lofty than that enjoyed in the past hundred years or so. To stay number one with a bullet, the US has just got to start producing again. Enough with producing houses. That boom was caused by the increase in divorce rates anyway
(I'm sort of kidding but do look at the stats) Everyday consumables is where it is at.
You can't walk into Sports Authority and buy American-made shoes, Jack. You'd be lucky to find American-made shoe laces. We're way past a "buy American" campaign. We don't make things anymore. We design fewer all the time. Our last remaining competitive edge is the American consumer economy that everybody else sells to. We either find a way to raise the money to re-build our productivity from that, or we fade away, and eventually become the source of cheap labor for international corporations based in India and China.
Not exactly what I had in mind for my grandkids. I'm not a fan of protectionism, either. We're out of options.
Tim
Not exactly what I had in mind for my grandkids. I'm not a fan of protectionism, either. We're out of options.
Tim
Gentlemen, the system is officially BROKEN. Today, I was talking to several leaders in the banking industry, to summarize, the new way of doing business for them is as follows:
1) Absolutely no risk whatsoever( zero risk factor) in any real estate loan is acceptable...
2) If the bank has any loans on their books that may potentially turn into any loss to the bank,
immediately turn to the "TARP" program for full refund of any loss.
3) If there is a pending loss for the bank, then refuse any solution that might minimize said loss
and instead incur as much loss as occurs;seeking full restitution from the "TARP" program
4) Continue to rely on the Feds to bail-out any possible loss for as long as possible.
5) Make as few loans as possible due to#1 and 4 above.
And we wonder why the market is in the doldrums
Wake UP-- Mr.Bernanke!
. Today, I was talking to several leaders in the banking industry, to summarize, the new way of doing business for them is as follows:1) Absolutely no risk whatsoever( zero risk factor) in any real estate loan is acceptable...
2) If the bank has any loans on their books that may potentially turn into any loss to the bank,
immediately turn to the "TARP" program for full refund of any loss.
3) If there is a pending loss for the bank, then refuse any solution that might minimize said loss
and instead incur as much loss as occurs;seeking full restitution from the "TARP" program
4) Continue to rely on the Feds to bail-out any possible loss for as long as possible.
5) Make as few loans as possible due to#1 and 4 above.
And we wonder why the market is in the doldrums
Wake UP-- Mr.Bernanke!
I had no idea. And I use them. Shows how much I'm paying attention. There is so little in the average store that is actually "made in America" anymore that I guess I've just given up the quest.
Tim
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
That is the most elegant solution, but unfortunately, the politicians won't buy. It's called a GST - Goods and Services Tax - and that's what is in place worldwide. I still remember when it was introduced in Singapore to widespread dismay. However, at that time we had a Dictatorship, so it was easily shoved down the throat of everyone.
Two years later, everybody realized that we each ended up paying LESS tax because of the reduction in personal income tax that accompanied the GST. Now, we still howl in protest when the GST goes up every few years (we are expecting it not to go up this year), the dictatorship in power is still the political party in power (but getting less and less a proportion of the votes every elections), and we've run a budget surplus 9 years out of 10.
I don't think that you are out of options. You are out of will.
The British did a very good job in the 80's recession with a "Buy British". The high-end hifi brands at that time did well. I remember that the Creek integrated I bought at that time had a little Union Jack stuck on the front that I proudly displayed even after I brought it home. Even if it costs a little more, every American here on the forum can do a little better. Buy Wilson, Evolution Acoustics, Rockport, Magnaplanar (dare I say Genesis) instead of B&W, Sonus Faber, Dynaudio. Choose Balanced Audio Technology, Spectral, Audio Research, Lamm over Audio Note, Balabo, Linn or MBL.
Make American Hifi proud again - I still remember the days when I was a kid aspiring to be drinking French wine, wearing a Swiss watch, and owning American Hifi.
Do, or do not. There is no try. - Yoda.
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
No dual citizenship. I pay taxes in the US on my US-sourced income, and taxes in Singapore on Singapore-sourced income.
That's another abnormality in the US tax code - US citizens who work overseas are supposed to be paying US taxes on overseas income, whereas US corporations don't pay US tax until they bring the income back to the US.
That's another abnormality in the US tax code - US citizens who work overseas are supposed to be paying US taxes on overseas income, whereas US corporations don't pay US tax until they bring the income back to the US.
A little of both, I suspect. It's different in high-end audio where the prices are high and the market is much more about cache than it is about price. There, it's a matter of will. I bought speakers (which are essentially my whole system) designed and built in the UK, with some parts sourced in Asia. I wanted what AVi had to offer, but I could have "bought American," had I really wanted to. When it came time to go buy "business casual" for the new job...not so much. Buying American would have been one hell of a logistical challenge, regardless of price. Really, in the broad sense, the ship has sailed on "buy American" and that's not all a bad thing. It's just that if we're not going to be a country that manufactures large quantities of consumer goods, we need to figure out what we are going to do when we grow up. Service economy? Who will we service when half the country is out of work?
Tim
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