And Just When You Think It Couldn't Get Any Worse

[jadis]

Hi Frantz:

This country is founded by immigrants young and old. I am an immigrant as well. There is a process where all potential immigrants have to prove that they have the means to support themselves or will be supported by someone who is already living here. All immigrants who can contribute to the society without being burdens should be welcomed even the older ones. ;-) I am old BTW. My point was the immigrants who receives government handouts today all must have gone through the screening process and yet they are living off of other working people. I am sure their free money has contributed to the current US deficit problems...

Hi Ki,

I know how strict the procedure is for potential immigrants to land in the States as I heard it first hand from my older sister who has a daughter who was born in the US and was planning to petition her as an immigrant. If this is so, why are there still immigrants as you say who are living off other people's hard work? And I suppose you are not talking of one or two such immigrants but a lot because the implication is that this is contributing to the deficit problem there. Has the screening process failed? And I just remember now, a cousin of my wife was petitioned by his wife to be an immigrant in the US. The wife is a registered nurse who is an immigrant herself. What I learned is that the husband can not seek legal employment anywhere while some papers are being worked out. He has been unemployed for a couple of years now but is a legal resident there. Now, this is probably what you meant by a person living off social security without having worked a day in the States. Like you, I wonder why this is happening.

 

[c1ferrari]

One would think...

Even seemingly independent, scientific, statistical sources will often be suspect because their funding is far from independent. But thinktanks, advocacy organizations, anyone with an investment in the outcome is highly suspect.Tim

this to be intuitive.
New poll -- How many watch Fox News
Just kidding, hehe.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Now, this is probably what you meant by a person living off social security without having worked a day in the States. Like you, I wonder why this is happening.

Many of us born in the United states not only wonder how this is happening, we wonder if this is happening. While I don't doubt that a few exist, I have never met, seen or heard of an illegal immigrant living off of Social Security, or welfare, in the US. But all I'd have to do is drive to a residential construction site or a meat processing plant to see them working here. American employers want the cheap labor. By hiring illegal immigrants in such huge numbers, they have essentially invited them here. And by ignoring the immigration laws, and looking the other way, our government endorses the invitation. We are the problem. If Canada was paying $100 an hour for sales clerks, their retail stores were hiring illegal US immigrants and the Canadian government was looking the other way, we'd be digging under the fence every day.

If America was serious about stopping illegal immigration, we wouldn't be talking about border security, which is expensive and ineffective. We would simply be enforcing the laws inside the country. Put the executives of Pulte Homes and Tyson Chicken on the evening news doing the perp walk in handcuffs and it would come to a stop very, very quickly. We're not serious about this. Neither of our political parties is. It is a manipulative political tool, especially in times like these when unemployment is high and ironically but unsurprisingly, illegal immigration is quite low. I haven't seen the statistics, but it wouldn't surprise me to read that now, more illegal immigrants are headed home, looking for work.

Tim

 

[jadis]

Tim, my understanding of Ki's previous statement that "However, I have hard time these days understanding why US government is paying for elderly immigrants with SS and Medicare benefits even when they had not worked a single day in US." - he was referring to legal immigrants, not illegal.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, my understanding of Ki's previous statement that "However, I have hard time these days understanding why US government is paying for elderly immigrants with SS and Medicare benefits even when they had not worked a single day in US." - he was referring to legal immigrants, not illegal.

Well...then...never mind. I don't know the circumstances under which those who have never paid into these programs can draw benefits.

Tim

 

[rblnr]

The Swedes are nice people but somehow I don't think the Chinese are really doing a lot of long term planning around their economic rivals in Sweden

Well, Sweden is a nation of under 10 million people -- it can never be an economic world power which doesn't mean it's systemic successes aren't worth looking at.

Whenever I hear anecdotes about things like some immigrants getting benefits or anything else where the numbers are likely really small population and/or dollar-wise, and these are held up to be major problems in the system, I want, as my Mom might have said, to york. In a country of 300 million, there are going to be cracks all over the place in the system -- shockingly, it's imperfect. But the cracks are usually pointed out as a way to deflect attention from the canyons where the deep damage lies.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Whenever I hear anecdotes about things like some immigrants getting benefits or anything else where the numbers are likely really small population and/or dollar-wise

My guess is that the numbers are so small that they couldn't even be effectively related to the US population or the annual expenditures on the programs pointed to. On the list of logical fallacies, I'm sure it has a name, but I just like to think of these kinds of arguments in comparative terms. It's like using Timothy McVeigh as evidence that there is a right-wing terrorist movement threatening the security of the United States from within.

Tim

 

[Gregadd]

Actually illegal immigrants are like anyone else. Paying taxes is as certain as death. They have difficulty reaping the benefits. See, http://news.jornal.us/article-4671....ation-Reform-could-be-the-reason---Video.html
***
Even the most ignorant anti-immigrant radio or TV personality knows that the 1996 welfare reform bill disqualified illegal immigrants from nearly all means-tested government programs including housing, Medicaid and Medicare-funded hospitalization assistance and even food stamps, The only services that illegal immigrants can still get is K-12 education and emergency medical care.
***

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Even the most ignorant anti-immigrant radio or TV personality knows

I think you underestimate the ignorance of radio and TV pundits of all political leanings. The bigger ones, however, have research staffs, and no excuse other than a desire to create drama out of disinformation, to not have their ratings inhibited by reality, to...any more alliteration anyone?

Tim

 

[rblnr]

It's like using Timothy McVeigh as evidence that there is a right-wing terrorist movement threatening the security of the United States from within.

And we've used 9/11, below 3000 deaths, to way oversell the terrorist threats from outside the country.

Understand, I lost a couple of friends in it, and saw much of it from my roof less that a mile away. Will never forget the second plane coming, and a sight that would be particularly resonant to anyone who's lived in NYC; people fleeing over the East River bridges. Now I'm all for going after the perpetrators, but two wars and all kinds of other concessions and money made and spent in the name of 'security' -- there are many other things that kill many more people every year. Those numbers aren't an absolute guide to how resources should be allocated, but should provide some perspective. The mainland has never been attacked before in modern history, and that shock was used IMO. Like Eisenhower said, the pursuit of absolute security leads to tyranny. Sorry for the OT.

 

[jazdoc]

No, I don't think we'll be considering Sweden a major economic rival either. And I don't think we have for a hundred years or so, if ever. The happy, healthy, relatively affluent Swedes seem oddly unconcerned by the fact that they're not a leading global economic power. Perhaps they asked themselves: Is the objective of a nation's economy perpetual growth and global economic power, or is it to create sustainable prosperity for its people? Perhaps they came to a diffferent conclusion than we did.

Tim

Excellent point Tim. But their model is demographically unsustainable with a current fertility rate of 1.88 for indigenous Swedes (with 2.1 required to maintain population). Sweden is actually better off the majority of Europe. For example, Greece has a fertility rate of 1.3; so 100 Greek grandparents have 66 children and 40 grandchildren. While it may be good for Greece's carbon footprint, it's impossible to maintain a generous social welfare state with an inverted population pyramid.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Excellent point Tim. But their model is demographically unsustainable with a current fertility rate of 1.88 for indigenous Swedes (with 2.1 required to maintain population). Sweden is actually better off the majority of Europe. For example, Greece has a fertility rate of 1.3; so 100 Greek grandparents have 66 children and 40 grandchildren. While it may be good for Greece's carbon footprint, it's impossible to maintain a generous social welfare state with an inverted population pyramid.

Yes, as we grow older we have to adjust to our personal objectives as well. With a little luck and forethought, we may even plan for them. I feel very smart at this point that I never bought a McMansion (well actually, I did, but I got out very quickly), because now it would just give me too much to maintain. Maybe nation states aren't so different. Maybe Sweden needs to be thinking about how they will remake the role of government to serve an aging population. But it's a thoughtful, nuanced, strategic thing; quite different from simply having babies (or immigrants) to build the tax base and shrinking government until it's small enough to drown in the bathtub.

Apologies to Grover Norquist.

Tim

 

[c1ferrari]

+1...

Whenever I hear anecdotes about things like...or anything else where the numbers are likely really small...and these are held up to be major problems in the system...usually...a way to deflect attention from...where the deep damage lies.

albeit with numerous ellipsis.