And then there were three...
- Thread starter spiritofmusic
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This thread makes little sense to me
. Subs are almost mandatory...depending on the room size and type of speaker...IF you want extended and full bass. To state that there is a trend to do away with subs because some people have become convinced that in their particular circumstance and with their specific room and gear subs are not effective....is a stretch, IMO.
I use two subs in my very small room, after a LOT of experimentation they are blended so well that the ONLY way anyone knows they are in the system is when I turn them off. The key with subs is to be very very careful to make sure that they are hidden in the mix...which usually requires a very light hand on the adjustments of the sub.The type/size and design of the sub is also crucial IMO. For example, the REL subs ( which I use) are able to utilize a somewhat unique high level connection directly to the amp, which I believe adds an immense amount of ease to the blend..and therefore ease in making it disappear in the mix.
Years ago when I heard Steve's system, I felt that it sounded better without the subs...simply because his speakers are basically full range...and didn't need any type of additional assistance in the lower frequencies..in his particular room. If I remember correctly, his Wilson utilizes a large (15"?) bass driver as part of the design. With his room size, that alone was more than sufficient. My system utilizes a 5" mid/bass driver as part of the design...so it makes no difference what size of room you have...you ain't going to get deep bass under ANY circumstances.
As Peter A keeps on insisting, it's horses for courses...and I totally agree with him. Trend...Nah. A few systems getting corrected ( presumably) to sound more bass accurate in their particular owner's rooms...yes.
. Subs are almost mandatory...depending on the room size and type of speaker...IF you want extended and full bass. To state that there is a trend to do away with subs because some people have become convinced that in their particular circumstance and with their specific room and gear subs are not effective....is a stretch, IMO.I use two subs in my very small room, after a LOT of experimentation they are blended so well that the ONLY way anyone knows they are in the system is when I turn them off. The key with subs is to be very very careful to make sure that they are hidden in the mix...which usually requires a very light hand on the adjustments of the sub.The type/size and design of the sub is also crucial IMO. For example, the REL subs ( which I use) are able to utilize a somewhat unique high level connection directly to the amp, which I believe adds an immense amount of ease to the blend..and therefore ease in making it disappear in the mix.
Years ago when I heard Steve's system, I felt that it sounded better without the subs...simply because his speakers are basically full range...and didn't need any type of additional assistance in the lower frequencies..in his particular room. If I remember correctly, his Wilson utilizes a large (15"?) bass driver as part of the design. With his room size, that alone was more than sufficient. My system utilizes a 5" mid/bass driver as part of the design...so it makes no difference what size of room you have...you ain't going to get deep bass under ANY circumstances.
As Peter A keeps on insisting, it's horses for courses...and I totally agree with him. Trend...Nah. A few systems getting corrected ( presumably) to sound more bass accurate in their particular owner's rooms...yes.
The best sub integrations I heard were all DRC - Marty's previous DRCed, and a host of Datasat Dirac MCH systems I heard with multi subs and smooth distributed bass - maybe audioguy on this forum has that experience.
I too mentioned to Steve I liked his better with the subs off, and that has been the case with some others. Yes all the above were SS. However there is a guy in London with Avalon compass diamonds who has nicely done his crossover to B&W subs with Allnic Sets. I haven't played with his subs much as I go there often to play with the Brinkmann Balance and have been recently comparing Allnic sets to Vitus Signature monos and KR VA 200 (these rock). He has a 30*14 room, speakers pulled in 14 feet, one sub way behind the speaker and the other way behind the listener. Very nice smooth distributed bass.
Like Peter alluded, subs require a lot of room placement and can't just be plonked down and said it works or it does not. Ask Mike if he puts his sub towers randomly and to his main towers. Some with Verity have reported separating the top and the bass and placing it at different points as beneficial. With Zus you cannot do that.
I too mentioned to Steve I liked his better with the subs off, and that has been the case with some others. Yes all the above were SS. However there is a guy in London with Avalon compass diamonds who has nicely done his crossover to B&W subs with Allnic Sets. I haven't played with his subs much as I go there often to play with the Brinkmann Balance and have been recently comparing Allnic sets to Vitus Signature monos and KR VA 200 (these rock). He has a 30*14 room, speakers pulled in 14 feet, one sub way behind the speaker and the other way behind the listener. Very nice smooth distributed bass.
Like Peter alluded, subs require a lot of room placement and can't just be plonked down and said it works or it does not. Ask Mike if he puts his sub towers randomly and to his main towers. Some with Verity have reported separating the top and the bass and placing it at different points as beneficial. With Zus you cannot do that.
Hey Keith, message understood. If it helps, I do love my sound, but I'm allowed to have reservations, yes?
A certain top audiophile has gone thru multiple pricey dacs in 2 years, I don't see anyone saying to him "Oh just settle down, already! Finding good digital can't be that hard".
I really wanted this thread to be about others not me.
Maybe it's time for me to think out aloud a bit less.
A certain top audiophile has gone thru multiple pricey dacs in 2 years, I don't see anyone saying to him "Oh just settle down, already! Finding good digital can't be that hard".
I really wanted this thread to be about others not me.
Maybe it's time for me to think out aloud a bit less.
Davey, I'm almost there.
My subs are now back in, come in only at 35Hz, level 2/10, what I think is appropriate setting for PEQ Freq and Gain.
Things sounding reasonably seamless, my tests of maintaining impact of snare strike and piano hammer, w greater body on the body of these instruments, is good.
Sorry guys for introducing a thread at cross purposes and it being more about my trials, I just thought an angle of me joining the subs naysayers was an amusing way to get others to chat about big spkrs w prodigious bass that don't have adjustability.
My subs are now back in, come in only at 35Hz, level 2/10, what I think is appropriate setting for PEQ Freq and Gain.
Things sounding reasonably seamless, my tests of maintaining impact of snare strike and piano hammer, w greater body on the body of these instruments, is good.
Sorry guys for introducing a thread at cross purposes and it being more about my trials, I just thought an angle of me joining the subs naysayers was an amusing way to get others to chat about big spkrs w prodigious bass that don't have adjustability.
Marc, almost there?? Keep on experimenting...and you will get THERE. Dialing in subs takes a good amount of time...and patience. One key thing, IME, is to NOT get stuck with just one position that you try and make work. Moving the subs around the room can help greatly...they will work in one area better than another. We were told in the old days that subs are non directional...which is somewhat true, BUT they certainly play better in one part of the room than another. BTW, IF you are trying to dial in more than one sub, then IME, the job gets exponentially harder with the more subs that you have. It took me a great deal of aggro( UK word...LOL) to get my two dialed in- in my very small room.( actually over a month of adjusting).
BTW, when you say your 'subs'...are you actually talking about the drivers built into your speakers?? If so, you have extremely limited options with that design. I would say that if that is the case ( you are talking of the woofer drivers in your speakers)...then you really don't have subs in your room....all IMHO.
BTW, when you say your 'subs'...are you actually talking about the drivers built into your speakers?? If so, you have extremely limited options with that design. I would say that if that is the case ( you are talking of the woofer drivers in your speakers)...then you really don't have subs in your room....all IMHO.
Davey, yes, inbuilt down firing subs.
I fully get the limitations of this. But I think you'd generally approve of where I've got.
I'm certainly more on top of PEQ settings than I was even a week ago.
I fully get the limitations of this. But I think you'd generally approve of where I've got.
I'm certainly more on top of PEQ settings than I was even a week ago.
Btw Keith, both Ked and I are in need of deep therapy. You know how damaged people attract each other. Well, he keeps seeking out my car crash threads.
The first rule of Audio Club is keep obsessing...
The first rule of Audio Club is keep obsessing...
Actually Marc, I don't think you really do understand the limitations of that design; until, that is, you hear something with separate well integrated subs.
Davey, I've heard Apogees w bass extension to die for.
Bass ribbons truly flat to 20Hz.
No separate subs needed.
Bass ribbons truly flat to 20Hz.
No separate subs needed.
What was the length of the room? Discussions about bass ignoring where bass goes from waveform to pressure mode are meaningless.
Duettas no more than 3' from front wall.
Room 17' deep x 11' x 8' approx. Seat pretty close to back wall.
Room 17' deep x 11' x 8' approx. Seat pretty close to back wall.
I am aware of only one thing Bill Clinton ever said with which I agree: "When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you do is stop digging."
If you cannot find contentment presently with some setting of the powered woofers built into your speakers, then only madness lies in the direction of adding external subwoofers.
Ron, not going to happen, I was just listing possibilities.
I'm more likely to halve the overall length of my room, get a pr of Duettas from Henk, try them w my Nats, and if no go, find some interesting tuneful, fluid SS option, or a hybrid amp.
I'm more likely to halve the overall length of my room, get a pr of Duettas from Henk, try them w my Nats, and if no go, find some interesting tuneful, fluid SS option, or a hybrid amp.
I have this vision of a Bob Newhart telephone conversation with Marc.
The Audiophile, it would be hilarious.
In the voice of Bob “so you’ve turned the subs off......” “and you’ve turned the Supertweeters off....”
Yep Ked, the one where you declare your system. No way am I raining on that parade.
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