And then there were three...

[Al M.]

Lastly, I found having a concrete floor is key, wooden floors or suspended floor can have peaks and be boomy. Concrete loves bass, and doesn't fire it back. So if wood floor maybe the shows over for the sub?

Yes, directly on the wooden floor my old REL sub sounded with horrible coloration (I haven't tried my JL subs on the wooden floor). I use ASC sub traps to excellent effect.

 

[Al M.]

Hello DaveyF,

I’ve discussed my perspective on this extensively before, so will not repeat those ideas here.

Instead, let me offer an analogy:

In America, the diet industry makes $66 billion annually.

A person who exercises semi-regularly primarily in medium intense bursts using compound exercises for strength and posture, with small to medium amounts of cardio (and hence, avoids long-term damage to joints impacting mobility); eats primarily for nutrition from foods that are purchased in-season and do not rely on agri-chemical spraying (and hence, avoids white and processed carbohydrates); and has learned to cook for themselves (and hence, is less reliant on what others consider to be “good for you” via an expensive marketing campaign), has created a lifestyle in which they will be much less likely to seek the advice of gurus promoting expensive fad diets, gym memberships advertised by persons whose results have more to do with their DNA, supplements and time spent exercising than the exercises themselves, and “diet pills” to manage weight gain.

That is, a person who has become a practitioner of self-management is immune to the snake oil salesmen. They can’t sell you a solution to a problem you don’t have.

The simple reality is that a person of magical thinking will look for magical solutions, even when the problem cannot be solved by those solutions, or worse, is compounded by them. Unfortunately, hi-fi - like weight loss - is full of magical thinking. And magical thinking on behalf of a consumer base who refuse to think robustly is much, much more of a problem than the fact that there will always be those wiling to take advantage of it.

Exposing fraudulent and unethical behaviour of a few is a band aid. Eradicating magical thinking on behalf of a majority is the cure. After all, the former cannot exist without the latter.

Best,

853guy

Excellent post.

 

[Barry2013]

Marc, have you thought about creating a thread devoted to your specific system and its evolution? In such a thread, you could share your thoughts, expose concerns, rave about the latest tweak, and ask specific or general advice. People could go to that specific thread to discuss your system. You seem to be ever searching for improvement which is why this thread drifted from your stated purpose of discussing full range, non adjustable full range floor standing speakers and how to make them work in specific rooms. That topic is not going anywhere because Tango, Steve and you have very different conditions and systems and there is no trend toward getting rid of subs.

I think you should start a separate thread on that subject if that is what you are really interested in discussing. The problem is that you keep bringing the discussion back to your Zu speakers and your dissatisfaction with the sound of your system.

I'm confused about the title of this thread.

I agree

 

[NorthStar]

...

I'm confused about the title of this thread.

Three audiophiles who let go of their subwoofers; he even mentioned it. Marc said that he's interested in other audiophiles with similar experience.

* A professional acoustician I am not; an interested/avid reader I am.

 

[spiritofmusic]

There's really nothing to be confused about.

I highlighted two prominent audiophiles that have disengaged their subs, and cheekily snuck myself into their esteemed company.

The thread was never meant to be another endless frippery about my system and Zus which are only of interest to me.

I formally declared early on I wanted to hear from owners of large speakers w full bass performance and how they've integrated their low end into their rooms w no low bass adjustability, since I've worked long and hard at mine, and that's with 6 way controls.

I can't make it any clearer than that. I'm happy for the thread to roll down, it's not really gone where I wanted it to.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, you'll see that I did ask specifically for opinions of other big full range spkrs where sub bass doesn't have fine tuning, and how owners deal w this.

I have v limited scope to get my subs right, and that's w six separate adjustable parameters. Just how do other people do it where they don't have these controls?

Marc, I only have the Magico Q3s, but they are full range floor standers which spec down to 26 Hz or so. I don't know what the in-room response is. Anyway, I tried to answer your question before. I spent a long time locating first the listening seat for smoothest bass response and then fine tuning speaker position based on the tips that I learned from reading Jim Smith's book, "Get Better Sound." He set up my last speakers and taught me the process. Basically, it requires patience, a known set of reference recordings, and knowing what to listen for. Backward/forward, then together/further apart, then toe in, then tilt. All this after seating position is set. I use a laser pointer and measuring device for very precise symmetry and incremental changes. It's a process, but I have found that if the speaker/amp match is good, the room/speaker match is good, the speaker is well designed, and it meets the owner's preferences, then, it is not so difficult to achieve good bass performance. Have you considered hiring a dealer or set up guy to help you out? As others have said, perhaps its as simple as your Zus no longer meet your needs. Nothing wrong with that. Trade them for other speakers.

I really don't know what else can be said about people setting up their full range speakers without the controls you mention. Perhaps that is why you are not getting many responses to your question.

 

[NorthStar]

There's really nothing to be confused about.

I highlighted two prominent audiophiles that have disengaged their subs, and cheekily snuck myself into their esteemed company.

The thread was never meant to be another endless frippery about my system and Zus which are only of interest to me.

I formally declared early on I wanted to hear from owners of large speakers w full bass performance and how they've integrated their low end into their rooms w no low bass adjustability, since I've worked long and hard at mine, and that's with 6 way controls.

I can't make it any clearer than that. I'm happy for the thread to roll down, it's not really gone where I wanted it to.

Hi Marc,

Is Mike Lavigne's sound system (and room) fits your criteria.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, apologies if I didn't acknowledge your set up protocol.

It may be something I should return to. Finally I've been able to get my spkrs clear of side walls, 4', and way off the front walls, 8' in my case. I have full symmetry, can sit any distance back from them, and plenty of space behind me.

I'm intrigued that it's so easy to get my sub controls wrong, only a narrow band of settings works, and yet others get more challenging spkrs (that are bigger, go deeper) to blend in successfully w no adjustability, other than placement.

Let me pick a prime example. Mike's 4 tower EA MM7s. His sub towers have full adjustability as my Zus do. But another marque might have produced a similar design w no adjustability. Would Mike have found them so easy to dial in purely thru positioning trial and error?

Do Rockport Arrakis owners really get it right relying on incremental back and forth, and toeing in and out?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Marc, Is Mike Lavigne's sound system (and room) fits your criteria.

I formally declared early on I wanted to hear from owners of large speakers w full bass performance and how they've integrated their low end into their rooms w no low bass adjustability, since I've worked long and hard at mine, and that's with 6 way controls.

Bob, my system (and speakers) does (do) have considerable 'low bass adjustablity' so does not qualify for Marc's criteria.

in addition to that I have done many room related changes to improve bass performance, and posted extensively regarding those changes.

edit: I see Marc just said the same thing at the same time.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Let me pick a prime example. Mike's 4 tower EA MM7s. His sub towers have full adjustability as my Zus do. But another marque might have produced a similar design w no adjustability. Would Mike have found them so easy to dial in purely thru positioning trial and error?

no way to answer that hypothetical question.

hard to imagine such an involved speaker system with such extreme extended low frequency capability without adjustability. would end up being a very frustrating speaker to live with.

 

[spiritofmusic]

And Mike, would you have gone for EA, the MM3 or 7, if they didn't have adjustability?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, I see we're out of synch, thanks for confirming what I thought.

 

[MadFloyd]

New thread started today and already 10 pages. Wow.

Well I'm very disappointed that this isn't a thread about the Genesis album.

I also gave up subs before you three.

 

[ack]

... and I finally integrated mine, after 15 years and it looks like it will stay connected

 

[Mike Lavigne]

And Mike, would you have gone for EA, the MM3 or 7, if they didn't have adjustability?

my speakers prior to the MM3's were the Von Schweikert VR9SE's (active adjustable bass in an integrated system), and I had VR11SE's (same adjustability) on order when I ordered my MM3's. with my room I expect ultimate large scale performance which requires the hardware (fully integrated drivers and amps) to do the lowest octaves and adjustability. emphasis on fully integrated.

so the alternative was the VR11SE's, a similarly adjustable speaker system as the MM3.

likely a better question might be whether I would have considered a large speaker system with no actively powered bass but passive adjustability. (XLF, large Focal, etc.)

not likely.....none ever crossed my mind. in my mind adjustability without integrated amplification is not sensible. the speaker designer with true full range aspirations should make it easy to integrate sufficient power for the lowest octaves.

YMMV.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Madfloyd, "...And Then There Were Three" the Genesis album DEFFO needs subs, that is one thin sounding album.

 

[spiritofmusic]

So Mike, finally I find someone who concurs w me.

FWIW, the very fact that it's so testing to get my subs right is testament to needing as much adjustability as possible.

And I think I'm there tonight, I've done a little spkrs repositioning, some to and fro on PEQ adjustments, and I'm good on deep bass.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Of course, "good" is never good enough for What's BEST Forum.

 

[morricab]

Davey, FWIW, the Zu sound is really compelling, but can be a bit of a "rough diamond".

So it does the musical message thing like live unamplified in the areas of tone density, timbre, immediacy, warmth and agility.

It slightly frays as 853guy succinctly put it, at the extremes of the full range driver envelope, where the upper mids can be a bit gritty into the treble, and the lower mids/upper bass can be opaque going into the subs.

This means the central message of music is really immersive, lots of tone and shove, but there's a lack of transparency or more accurately neutrality and flow into the frequency extremes, and as such, music is a little coloured.

Now compared to the colourations I really struggle with in other gear, from ceramic mids drivers hardness, to overly warm tube amps, to tipped up treble heavy behemoth spkrs, to grainy SS amps, to presentations which are hyper resolved at the expense of tone and timbre, the Zus shortcomings are benign, and easily lived with.

But they are there, the room, and additional efforts into optimisation via ancilliaries and careful attention to subs settings, have both brought the best out of my Zus, AND revealed their potential glass ceiling.

This why you should look at Horning Eufrodite Ellipse. Full range driver used as a proper midrange. Smoothed off the roughness and added a tweeter and proper TQWT bass punch.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Brad, I understand yr recommendation here, but

1- the Horning is best in corners, which is no go in my room where the side walls are 4' high, and

2- I followed a thread on Agon I think where a Horning owner had nightmares integrating the spkr correctly, you guessed it, on deep bass.