And then there were three...

[spiritofmusic]

Tao, very interesting.

I've got to such a level of calm and resolution in my room, that I can easily pick apart the subs quality if they're JUST too intrusive.

In my old space, my acoustic was so harsh and reflective that larger subs output was needed to smooth the sound.

Here, the acoustic is much more sympathetic, that my main full range drivers are naturally fuller and extend lower.

Now I can rely on only minimal subs contribution, and thus their Class D nature hardly intervenes.

I'm just a little anxious that any spkr I choose in future that proudly specs well below 30Hz and doesn't have adjustability in those nether regions might be a bitch to integrate.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Ked, I’ve only heard the OMA mini and it needs the sub, but I’d love to hear the OMA Monarchs.

My mate has also considered getting the Tune Audio Kion or Prime sub plus am also thinking that Animas making a return is always on the cards for him as well. OMA and Anima is best of both worlds. Sigh.

 

[Tango]

I envy people who can hear and able to identify 20-30 Hz. How does it sound like without looking at graph.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[spiritofmusic]

Tang, it's what it does to instruments.

As a drummer, snare and ride are my go-to references.

If subs muffle or smear impact and reverb, no go.

That means the thwack on the skin, fullness of the shell and reverb of the wires. Clang of stick on bell, swell of vibrations along the cymbal.

Piano similarly, impact of hammer etc plus body of note.

Need clarity AND body, too much subs means that one or both are muted.

 

[bonzo75]

Ked, I’ve only heard the OMA mini and it needs the sub, but I’d love to hear the OMA Monarchs.

My mate has also considered getting the Tune Audio Kion or Prime sub plus am also thinking that Animas making a return is always on the cards for him as well. OMA and Anima is best of both worlds. Sigh.

Never heard the Tune subs work well. F1eng on this forum owns the older sub with his Anima and does not use it. Monarch more complete than Anima but much more expensive

 

[the sound of Tao]

Marc,
When I tried the Wilson Benesch sub on the 20.7s I initially tried running with SS on the panels thinking that’d mate closer to the sub. Then I tried with 250 watt Manley EL34 monos on the panels and ultimately thought that integrated better. It’s like the plasticity of the tube sound (with just a bit of additional low body reinforcement from the subs) better masked the crossover point rather than having two AB SS amps for both sub and panel where it was all a bit more obvious where things were joining up.

Still unsure on overall impacts of a class d plate amp and think DDK’s thoughts on big picture issues with subs rings true for me. But also that others may make them work for themselves is perfectly feasible as well as we all have different hearing and perceptual leanings.

I do get that you are weighing everything up and no matter what you do going forward I’d consider horns would probably likely be less room dependent than panels and sound like a potential candidate for your room but like all it’ll be a case of just trying and discovering and fully understand how stressy that move can be. Would definitely aim to hold onto the Zu’s if possible during transition.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well the consensus seems to be that down firing subs are out, so no Animas or Universum.

The only full range horns that will go sub 30Hz and not use SS amps separately to sub bass, in the £40k sweet spot (Trios w BHs excluded, again w Class D to subs, and closer to £80k), are candidates like Zingali Client/Client Evo w 15" sub drivers, Haigner Alpha and GammaHorns).

Luckily my room is such a dream for spkr placement (w caveat of max spkr ht of 5.5') that positioning to lock down bass could be v straightforward.

 

[bonzo75]

Don't understand why downward firing subs are out? That should be for apartments, not you. Lol at zingali at this level. Have you heard one, or is this based on someone else having heard something else

 

[the sound of Tao]

Never heard the Tune subs work well. F1eng on this forum owns the older sub with his Anima and does not use it. Monarch more complete than Anima but much more expensive

The OMAs are all bespoke looking seductions but I also figured the Monarch might be a touch out of my pricing postcode. Though the Anima and the OMA mini both mate OK with contemporary subs like the Wilson Benesch so maybe that control is needed to have a shot at blending with the horns.

 

[bonzo75]

The OMAs are all bespoke looking seductions but I also figured the Monarch might be a touch out of my pricing postcode. Though the Anima and the OMA mini both mate OK with contemporary subs like the Wilson Benesch so maybe that control is needed to have a shot at blending with the horns.

Anima much better than the mini imo

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hey Ked, Ra sits right under my listening space. Have a heart LOL.

The flagship Zu likely to be close to $30k when released will have 4x12" subs per spkr, none downfiring.

I'm aiming to go and listen to the Universum at some stage, and will take up Brad's kind offer of an invite to hear Dynamikks, to incl Christophs Scintillas, which would then incl a trip to hear the Haigners.

I'm not seeing many other horns to add to a very short shortlist.

My working life is a little manic atm running two clinics, so I just need to find the time.

At least I've crossed Pnoes off my list LOL.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I've already spoken to Sean at Zu, his aim is to make the sensitivity of the multiple 12" subs as close as possible to the 101dB of the full range drivers, to enable consideration of running Class A tubes on them. That would certainly address a criticism of Zu, that the current subs are locked into on-board Class D plate amps.

 

[JackD201]

I envy people who can hear and able to identify 20-30 Hz. How does it sound like without looking at graph.

Kind regards,
Tang

If you hear it directly then that is a bad sign. Too loud, crossed over too high, or combination of both. It should only really impact fundamentals in timbre and soundscape size, ideally at least.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I envy people who can hear and able to identify 20-30 Hz. How does it sound like without looking at graph.

Kind regards,
Tang

For me the point is also less about obvious shifts and more about the sense of the weight of the left hand on the piano... apologies if that is a bit obscure but it is the best I can manage and as soon as adding subs becomes obvious in volume for me it is too much and it is much more about reinforcing fundamentals and stage as Jack outlines above. In the end if the speaker can do things like balance it on its own that is the better compromise for me but that is as always purely a subjective call.

 

[bonzo75]

Ok if your floor will let the sound go through below best to rule them out

 

[spiritofmusic]

Zu never do things the easy way.

My first pr in 2008 had 4x 10" subs per spkr, backfiring.

My current pr, 2012, 1x12" per spkr, downfiring.

The new TOTL model to be released in 2019/20 will have per spkr 2x12" front firing, 1x12" side firing in, 1x12" side firing out.

 

[shakti]

I spent the last three weeks to properly integrate a subwoofer in my room to some low frequency response to my Hours Universum III.

So just the opposite of the thread....

Having used the YG Anat II reference professional speakers (former Sonja version) with the active sub option, I started to hear all the base mode problems of my 60sqm room.
I invested in some bass traps, diffusors and absorbers, so the room is now much better and can survive low frequencies response of speakers.

Now with the Universum III, it took some time to integrate the speakers into the room. You can make an UNI III in room position to have the best deep base response or to have the best blend to the midrange Horn. I decided to go for the best bass integration to the midrange Horn (at around 350hz).

As a result, the Universum III has now a measured graph on my listening position, showing a flat response to around 60hz, than falling down to 35hz.

Means, that I am missing a lot of information , which I was used to hear from my YG system.

Integrating a subwoofer is a long story in its own, but finally I managed to add a subwoofer in the way, that I can enjoy the complete system now in a much better way.

Specially the realism of instruments in the room is much better, the staging is more 3D.

reading here in this thread, that people do switch of their subs is great for me , as I might look to buy an even better subwoofer in the near future,
may be some good subwoofers will find their way into the WBF market place

Personally I do not like to miss the region below 40hz, too much information about the roomsize are recorded in the deep bass area.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Shakti, how does the Zingali experience fit into all this?

 

[PeterA]

Marc,

These are integrated subwoofers, very different from having stand-along ones around the room.
I'd say if you intend to stick with the Zus (and heck, I don't know why you would, as they're obviously deficient in so many ways), you should stop buying tweaks and hire some professional help.
Someone to come over to your room, measure, and then position and adjust the parameters of the built-in subs in your speakers.
You obviously haven't nailed it by yourself by now, so professional help only makes sense, before spending money on more tweaks.
And to answer your query, with speakers that do not offer integrated adjustable subs, it's the same deal. Set up matters. Where you place them, listening position, etc. In your case, it gets more complicated by the adjustability. Thus, the possible need for outside help.
That, or just buy a better speaker

cheers,
alex

Alex, a nice summary of what took me about ten posts to write.

 

[shakti]

Shakti, how does the Zingali experience fit into all this?

The Zingali Client Name Evo 1.5 had real 35 hz in room response, not as deep, as the YG, but still good enough to enjoy "realism"