Another Apogee thread? You bet!

[spiritofmusic]

Frantz, my experience here of Duettas and 211s contradicts yr assertion
And Lissnr w his tubes and Duettas too
But yes, no brainer that SS is best suited
If I really can marry NATs w Apogees, that's a Lottery win scenario

 

[Zero000]

Was talking to Jon after Marc left. One of the things he said was that he didn't consider the Ayon Orthos II at 400/channel to sound that much different to my vintage Accuphase monos. When here, he expressed a preference for the Accuphase amps over the Ayons.

The Accuphase M-60s are greater than half Kilowatt capable into the Duetta. So a tad more powerful.

However, the difference in sound quality between the Austria Analogue 211s and the Accuphase is quite marked. I actually think the 211s have better bass. It is faster and more dynamic. The Accuphase do sound cleaner, however, and will play louder, but not by a massive amount to be quite frank about it.

The truth is it is an exponential scale and the increase in volume over dumping an extra 400 Watts into a Duetta is actually not that pronounced. The speaker will NOT play as loud as a pair of Wilsons, say, and the extra power just gets "drunk" by the speaker.

Anyway, Marc was offered the chance to hear the Accuphase but declined. He didn't get back home until 1:30 am so that is understandable.

Me? The truth is I haven't listened to the Accuphase for a few months now. However, summer is on its way so they'll be back in soon. And I know I'll wonder why I didn't plug them back in sooner.

Then I'll swap the 211s back in and wonder why I didn't do that earlier.

Both solutions have their own merits and disadvantges with the Duetta. It is a model that will thrive off tube amps and the same cannot be said for the rest of the full range riibbon designs.

Are really expensive amps necessary? If it makes you feel better you spent a shed load of money on them, then yes. Otherwise no. Finding a good match, if you can hear through price, is a much better option.

The 211s retail is around £7-8K, if you could buy them, but I don't think you can anymore.

I've got a £200 2nd hand Apart Champ One 600W class G/H amp that sounds surprisingly OK driving the Interstella. Really - it does a good job.

 

[ddk]

I agree with ddk there. And divas apparently love being biamped, though unlike the FR they don't need to be.

David, I think you mistakenly quoted Jack. Did you ever lose out on bass due to the room, like have real low bass?

In 2002 I moved to a beautiful loft space in TriBeCa NY which was supposed to also serve as our main showroom for the lines we were distributing including Kharmas. In size and looks it was a dream space but we lost everything below 80hz. I wasted a year and a half and tons of money with acousticians even committed the cardinal sin and tried dsp but nothing worked. It's still a mystery...

Define low bass for me its anything below 50hz which I'm perfectly fine with, never aimed below mid 20's, in some rooms it wasn't sustainable and other rooms with large dips I've had to compensate for it but that's not unique to Apogees.

david

 

[spiritofmusic]

Justin, fascinating
Some defying the laws of physics going on
The Divas in a big 30x30x15 room seemed like Black Holes, literally sucking the life from uber pwrful Spectrals
In fact my nickname for them was "infinite power sponges"
That's why I came to yr demo w such low expectations
And why flipping my skepticism a full 180 was such a joyous moment

 

[bonzo75]

In 2002 I moved to a beautiful loft space in TriBeCa NY which was supposed to also serve as our main showroom for the lines we were distributing including Kharmas. In size and looks it was a dream space but we lost everything below 80hz. I wasted a year and a half and tons of money with acousticians even committed the cardinal sin and tried dsp but nothing worked. It's still a mystery...

Define low bass for me its anything below 50hz which I'm perfectly fine with, never aimed below mid 20's, in some rooms it wasn't sustainable and other rooms with large dips I've had to compensate for it but that's not unique to Apogees.

david

Hi by low bass I meant less bass, as in.due to bass nulls. Not in terms of low on the frequency spectrum

 

[ddk]

The Accuphase are too much of a compromise IMO, they're dead and lifeless even when compared to some other ss amps and you're right about the bass!

david

Was talking to Jon after Marc left. One of the things he said was that he didn't consider the Ayon Orthos II at 400/channel to sound that much different to my vintage Accuphase monos. When here, he expressed a preference for the Accuphase amps over the Ayons.

The Accuphase M-60s are greater than half Kilowatt capable into the Duetta. So a tad more powerful.

However, the difference in sound quality between the Austria Analogue 211s and the Accuphase is quite marked. I actually think the 211s have better bass. It is faster and more dynamic. The Accuphase do sound cleaner, however, and will play louder, but not by a massive amount to be quite frank about it.

The truth is it is an exponential scale and the increase in volume over dumping an extra 400 Watts into a Duetta is actually not that pronounced. The speaker will NOT play as loud as a pair of Wilsons, say, and the extra power just gets "drunk" by the speaker.

Anyway, Marc was offered the chance to hear the Accuphase but declined. He didn't get back home until 1:30 am so that is understandable.

Me? The truth is I haven't listened to the Accuphase for a few months now. However, summer is on its way so they'll be back in soon. And I know I'll wonder why I didn't plug them back in sooner.

Then I'll swap the 211s back in and wonder why I didn't do that earlier.

Both solutions have their own merits and disadvantges with the Duetta. It is a model that will thrive off tube amps and the same cannot be said for the rest of the full range riibbon designs.

Are really expensive amps necessary? If it makes you feel better you spent a shed load of money on them, then yes. Otherwise no. Finding a good match, if you can hear through price, is a much better option.

The 211s retail is around £7-8K, if you could buy them, but I don't think you can anymore.

I've got a £200 2nd hand Apart Champ One 600W class G/H amp that sounds surprisingly OK driving the Interstella. Really - it does a good job.

 

[bonzo75]

The Accuphase are too much of a compromise IMO, they're dead and lifeless even when compared to some other ss amps and you're right about the bass!

david

Totally agree

 

[JackD201]

Yes I did! Deep, knee in the gut powerful and articulate bass but that revelation came with high-end solid state. First with the Levinson 33 which totally transformed the Divas from top to bottom, I had know no idea up to then how capable and incredible their low end was up to that point. The Divas were playing real loud and full range with real bass for the the first time blowing away my Wilson X-1s. Later the Lamm M2.1s gave me the musicality and sophistication that I lost switching over from tubes and then some!



With the right amps even stock Divas will outperform your Zus in both quantity and quality. I stand firmly by my experience that you haven't heard an Apogee until you hear them with real high current amplifiers like the Levinson or the Lamm's, despite the stories Krells of that era weren't up to the task even if one could stomach their sound.

david

ML 33s or M2.xs? That's cheating!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

ML 33s or M2.xs? That's cheating!

I recall back in 1999 switching from ML 33h's to the big ML 33's. even that was a big jump everywhere on my WP6's.

still physically the most beautiful 'room commanding' amplifiers.......ever.

 

[ddk]

ML 33s or M2.xs? That's cheating!

Hey, you need the big guns for the bad Divas to sing!

I recall back in 1999 switching from ML 33h's to the big ML 33's. even that was a big jump everywhere on my WP6's.

still physically the most beautiful 'room commanding' amplifiers.......ever.

Totally agree Mike, I don't think anyone has come even close to their gorgeous Art Deco inspired industrial design.

david

 

[JackD201]

By coincidence, just last Friday I was invited to a friend's and he had 33Hs. For me the 32/33H/33 was the peak of ML. The 4 Series hot rodded Proceeds. The 33Hs were no slouches either and hold up today in most areas except the top end. Luckily these days one can still get the sound DNA with the big Violas now with more clarity if not the 33's timeless looks. I never did get to the Reference level MLs for myself and went off on a long painful merry-go-round for alternatives as the 3s had been discontinued by the time I could afford them. I eventually found my way to Lamm which bridged the love of tubes I developed in that phase and my need for power. Octogenarians in audio years the M class Lamms likewise continue to hold up very well.

 

[Zero000]

The Accuphase are too much of a compromise IMO, they're dead and lifeless even when compared to some other ss amps and you're right about the bass!

david

That's a fair viewpoint but only without hearing them in situ here. I have heard more recent Accuphase amps sounding terrible with big Tannoy Westminsters etc etc.

I like them. Why? Because I think they're totally cool. The point is they were built in 1975, they were the first ever Accuphase monos, the styling is spot on, and until someone comes round here with a set of solid state monos that can truly manage better than these can they will stay.

The point is they are the opposite of the 211s. Clean, technically excellent especially for the time they were made, and they are far from lifeless in situ here. Sterile by comparison to the 211s, but my wife thinks they're the best amps she's ever heard, and other people like them too.

There are better SS amps out there. There can't not be in 2017. At least I'd hope so. But I have had £30K solid state monos in here and they haven't been better. Different? Yes. Better? Hm. No.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Justin, Spectrals on Divas were enough to nearly never make that date w you

 

[bonzo75]

That doesn't mean anything, think those Jeff rowland were class D. Luxman, Vitus, Dagostino, symphonic line, all at various price points will kill them. Probably MSB too. I would like to try Berning quads on the duetta to see if it works, then ideal.

 

[ddk]

By coincidence, just last Friday I was invited to a friend's and he had 33Hs. For me the 32/33H/33 was the peak of ML. The 4 Series hot rodded Proceeds. The 33Hs were no slouches either and hold up today in most areas except the top end. Luckily these days one can still get the sound DNA with the big Violas now with more clarity if not the 33's timeless looks. I never did get to the Reference level MLs for myself and went off on a long painful merry-go-round for alternatives as the 3s had been discontinued by the time I could afford them. I eventually found my way to Lamm which bridged the love of tubes I developed in that phase and my need for power. Octogenarians in audio years the M class Lamms likewise continue to hold up very well.

The 32 wasn't that good, the best thing about it was that finally you could use the same remote for the whole system if you had the 30.5 & 31.5 which I think was their best achievement. The Viola pre is the same concept lots of inputs and flexibility but no sound quality.

My M1.1 & M2.1s are 18 years young this year, I got them a few months after discovering the ML2s which I still use daily!

david

 

[Zero000]

That doesn't mean anything, think those Jeff rowland were class D. Luxman, Vitus, Dagostino, symphonic line, all at various price points will kill them. Probably MSB too. I would like to try Berning quads on the duetta to see if it works, then ideal.

Or so you'd hope. I would hope.

Get 'em round here Kedar...

 

[bonzo75]

The Luxman was way superior to the viola symphony in a direct compare. The viola has more extension and is faster, but the fast is forced, not a natural fast like spectral. Tone is all off. Tried on YG and TAD floorstanders (the smaller ones)

 

[bonzo75]

David, maybe you missed...Did the diva give you bass nulls and less bass in any setting due to the room

 

[ddk]

David, maybe you missed...Did the diva give you bass nulls and less bass in any setting due to the room

Only in a very poor sounding room and when I had them in front of floor to ceiling glass windows but I had the same problem with the X-1s in the same location just not quite as bad. (edit) Glass is Apogee's and probably all panel speaker's Krytonite!

david

 

[bonzo75]

How do you guys rare the cello amp compared to the ML 33