Any Bergmann "Galder" owners here ?

[marmota]

@Folsom LOL
Wait for me selling all the toilet paper I have, then my budget will be 11/10
The fully equiped version (copper platter, vacuum hold down, Odin tonearm) costs around 27K euros inc. VAT, no one with that budget will notice a 1-2K increase for the fancier box

@asiufy That wouldn't be a bad idea, I hope he and I enjoy the best possible health so I can have time to save enough money, at the moment I can only buy a record mat

 

[PeterA]

Congratulations, Philip.

Can anyone describe the arm board mounting system to me? It the arm connected to the platter section, the motor section, or both. The photos seem to show that it spans the gap, but it is unclear to me. Thanks.

 

[tima]

This is Bergmann, not Brinkmann.

Yes, my bad, though I looked up Bergman.

What is the drive topology?

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, my bad, though I looked up Bergman.

What is the drive topology?

Belt. They always had linear trackers, Bergmann Sindre was a lower model that Gian owned before and Bill owns now. Sounds great with red sparrow

 

[Mike Lavigne]

a Galder/Odin data point.....

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-announces-new-owner.27862/page-3#post-570499

 

[Mobiusman]

I love this turntable. What's the MSRP? and with the arm?

. I think it is either 36,500 or 37,000

 

[bazelio]

The 90 lbs copper platter is likely a significant upgrade to the standard aluminum (?) platter and should go a long way via mass loading to correcting the bass issue noted by Mik.

 

[Folsom]

The 90 lbs copper platter is likely a significant upgrade to the standard aluminum (?) platter and should go a long way via mass loading to correcting the bass issue noted by Mik.

Why? I actually can't imagine how that would change that factor. Mass is reflective but if it transfers you're not going to stop it. The platter moves, it can't do much about low frequencies.

Although I'm not sure what the bass issue is exactly?

 

[bazelio]

I don't know the mechanism at play but I've yet to hear a lightweight turntable reproduce deep bass well. Brinkmann Balance might be the lightest I can think of, and it's still around 70 lbs (probably largely dominated by platter mass).

 

[bazelio]

Mik's comment was:

The Galder is a great deck in many ways has a lovely midrange and highly enjoyable great soundstage highly enjoyable the bass while very free flowing and airy does not quite get the last bit of weight down bellow, seems to work best with the Top wing red sparrow overall hates the lyras and the Vdh.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Why? I actually can't imagine how that would change that factor. Mass is reflective but if it transfers you're not going to stop it. The platter moves, it can't do much about low frequencies.

Although I'm not sure what the bass issue is exactly?

first off; at Axpona last year in the Alma (Alex's) room i heard the Galder/Odin and was super impressed and posted such about it.

so i come from a point of considerable respect for this tt but have a question; if you start out with a 23 pound aluminum platter and 52 pound aluminum plinth, then switch to a 90 pound copper platter, will the plinth be sufficiently robust to optimize that platter?

in the case of my CS Port; i have a 60 pound stainless platter, and 85 pound granite plinth (and a 6 pound record weight).

how much mass is 'enough' for a plinth? is it a relative issue for the platter?

and maybe the 90 pound platter for the Galder comes with a modified plinth? would be good to know.

as far as the bass question; my opinion and it's reinforced by my frequent talks with Mik about the CS Port linear tracker, is that the bass is mostly an arm issue, and and to a lower degree an air bearing design issue.....both arm and platter. platter mass is more a flow and PRAT thing, and a tonal stability thing......cohesion on peaks. of course it's a 'system'.....and hard to point at pieces unless you designed it.

then there is the vacuum hold down and it's influence on the whole system. as well as a motor that does have a feedback loop (just a thing, not a good or bad thing).

 

[bazelio]

Mike, I've also heard the same elsewhere regarding low bass performance of air bearing linear trackers now that you mention it. Certainly there could be multiple factors at play. Interesting questions about the interplay between platter and plinth mass too. The Brinkmann Balance just stands out to me as a largish platter and minimal plinth design that does bass better than most TTs out there.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bazelio, it's an urban legend that LTs don't do bass. I've lived w my Terminator for 7 years, and it's bass performance is the killer feature that sells the arm. It has slam, speed and tunefulness.

 

[Folsom]

first off; at Axpona last year in the Alma (Alex's) room i heard the Galder/Odin and was super impressed and posted such about it.

so i come from a point of considerable respect for this tt but have a question; if you start out with a 23 pound aluminum platter and 52 pound aluminum plinth, then switch to a 90 pound copper platter, will the plinth be sufficiently robust to optimize that platter?

in the case of my CS Port; i have a 60 pound stainless platter, and 85 pound granite plinth (and a 6 pound record weight).

how much mass is 'enough' for a plinth? is it a relative issue for the platter?

and maybe the 90 pound platter for the Galder comes with a modified plinth? would be good to know.

as far as the bass question; my opinion and it's reinforced by my frequent talks with Mik about the CS Port linear tracker, is that the bass is mostly an arm issue, and and to a lower degree an air bearing design issue.....both arm and platter. platter mass is more a flow and PRAT thing, and a tonal stability thing......cohesion on peaks. of course it's a 'system'.....and hard to point at pieces unless you designed it.

then there is the vacuum hold down and it's influence on the whole system. as well as a motor that does have a feedback loop (just a thing, not a good or bad thing).

Actually this is an interesting subject. If the they are coupled well with a regular bearing then things are very different than with air. The heavier platter will send more energy into the lighter plinth, but only the rotational energy. Because the platter is on it, it could inherently make it want to sway a little bit. When the opposite is true the rotational energy gets spent a bit more on friction (heat) in the bearing, and mostly keeps the platter moving.

When you've got an air bearing they aren't coupled as well as long as it's horizontal and vertical. In that case you just need enough pressure from the air to stop rubbing. However that energy can be spent on a touch of wobble if it's not also sufficient enough. 47Labs made a counter rotating platter on the bottom to try and balance that sound out, and so did that whatever thing higher end. Do I think wobble is a problem? Probably not if the bearing is good.

So what I would say is you want a much heavier plinth if you don't have an air bearing.


Linear trackers bass is a harder thing to diagnose... especially since numerous linear trackers are significantly different.

 

[Folsom]

I don't know the mechanism at play but I've yet to hear a lightweight turntable reproduce deep bass well. Brinkmann Balance might be the lightest I can think of, and it's still around 70 lbs (probably largely dominated by platter mass).

Really? I haven't noticed that. Well maybe sometimes with belts. In that case it is inertia, not mass loading. Bass is enhanced in tables sometimes because of resonances in the bass region (20 some hz in some tables, like idlers for example). For the mass to matter with bass you'd basically need the floor to be bouncing up and down. I'd actually expect copper to sound less bright than aluminum so you get a better balance though.

 

[Folsom]

Bazelio, it's an urban legend that LTs don't do bass. I've lived w my Terminator for 7 years, and it's bass performance is the killer feature that sells the arm. It has slam, speed and tunefulness.

Linear trackers vary greatly. It'd be fun to test out a bunch on the same table, I think anyways.

 

[bonzo75]

Mike, I've also heard the same elsewhere regarding low bass performance of air bearing linear trackers now that you mention it. Certainly there could be multiple factors at play. Interesting questions about the interplay between platter and plinth mass too. The Brinkmann Balance just stands out to me as a largish platter and minimal plinth design that does bass better than most TTs out there.

Fremer did mention this in his BB review, that as he goes up the curve with TTs he prefers minimal plinth and more platter. I am paraphrasing but what he exactly said is available for public read.

And yes BB bass and linearity through the Midbass is fantastic.

 

[asiufy]

I don’t agree with 108CY’s assessment of the Galder. What I hear from mine is exactly what he describes for the CS PORT. At that room in AXPONA, we got plenty of compliments for the bass AND dynamics, even though we were using a sealed, inefficient YG.
And Fremer spends a great amount of time on his review going on by how the Galder has incredible bass, against his own preconception and prejudices.
TBH, Bergmann tables PRIOR to the Galder were indeed a little reticent, even the previous top of the line (Sleipner). But Galder is on another level, and so is the new Odin arm.

 

[bazelio]

Fremer did mention this in his BB review, that as he goes up the curve with TTs he prefers minimal plinth and more platter. I am paraphrasing but what he exactly said is available for public read.

And yes BB bass and linearity through the Midbass is fantastic.

I hadn't thought of it prior to this discussion, but the air bearing probably does change that equation for the Galder. I've never noticed minimal plinth and more platter being preferable personally. I'm curious what @ddk might think about platter to plinth mass ratios, air bearing aside.

 

[bazelio]

Congratulations, Philip.

Can anyone describe the arm board mounting system to me? It the arm connected to the platter section, the motor section, or both. The photos seem to show that it spans the gap, but it is unclear to me. Thanks.

The arm connects to the platter section and does not touch the motor section. It's pretty clear in this photo.