Anyone with big, high current amplifier(s) find a power conditioner that doesn't destroy the amplifier's virtues? Is it even possible? Which Ones?

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
#21
Posts deleted for the sake of preserving this thread

Gentlemen, can we get beyond the trolling thoughts and comments and stick to the thread topic?

There are some very interesting posts here so why doesn't everyone have a sip of morning coffee and enjoy the day. Let's stop the silly accusations here
 
May 30, 2010
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Portugal
#22
Are you meaning to differentiate between power conditioners and power distributors? The thread title suggests you're not but your sentences speak to each. Most responses seem oriented to power conditioners. Granted that some products self-labeled as power distributors include some form of conditioning.

I'm interested in power distributors without conditioning. What criteria or feature set should one look for in a power distributor without conditioning? OFC outlets? Copper buss system or point-to-point? High gauge steel chassis?

Does adding protection such as an electronmagnetic circuit breaker and/or surge/spike protection impinge on dynamic current delivery? While some types may be filters, is the use of such considered power conditioning?
Very hard to answer, as they are never completely independent, in this hobby even a simple wire or a fuse can be considered power conditioners.

In order to organize power devices we have to analyze their action - and here we will find a lot of disagreement, the will create a lot of noise in the tabulation task. Personally I find that the Shunyata efforts on systematization are worth referring, although they reflect their own perspective on this subject. https://shunyata.com/technical-articles/
 

Folsom

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Oct 26, 2015
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#23
It depends a lot on the equipment and mains characteristics. IMHO we have not data enough to support the "usually". Unfortunately most (yes, almost all) people get conditioners without first getting a proper mains diagnostic.
You don't have enough data. I have plenty.
 
Jul 26, 2018
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#24
I like the HB Cable Design Powerstar Galaxy MKII and the Shunyata Research Denali Power distributors. I use both with amplifiers and prefer the sound when utilizing these products in the chain. For me these open up the sound stage and reduce noise. They give my systems more dimension. They are very enjoyable upgrades in this very addictive hobby!:)

Powerslave Marble_003_1.jpg shunyatadenali-group.jpg
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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#25
Very hard to answer, as they are never completely independent, in this hobby even a simple wire or a fuse can be considered power conditioners.

In order to organize power devices we have to analyze their action - and here we will find a lot of disagreement, the will create a lot of noise in the tabulation task. Personally I find that the Shunyata efforts on systematization are worth referring, although they reflect their own perspective on this subject. https://shunyata.com/technical-articles/
Yes, I'm intimately familiar with the top-end Shunyata distributed power conditioning products and wrote several reviews of the Triton and Typhon. Caelin Gabriel's articles and videos on DTCD are backed with thorough research and testing.

I am interested to learn if there is a line between conditioners and distributors. Granted it can be blurry, in part based on how we categorize parts and functions. That's why I wanted to know what makes up a quality power distributor, at least those that make no claims about conditioning. As laid out in my first msg.
 

Vienna

Active Member
Oct 14, 2018
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#26
Interesting...are you concerned the Mephisto will have problems with the Torus? Years ago, i melted a power conditioner with my Antileon.

How can i 'know' that there is sufficient capacity in the Torus or any other such conditioner? Thanks!
The Torus 16AVR is way more than enough for the Mephisto Stereo
 
Mar 24, 2017
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#27
The Denali is definitely not going to work on monster amps (couldn't tell you on lesser amps but from reviews it seems that it can work just fine if the amps aren't pulling a lot of juice but I would expect that's the case with most power conditioners). On my M400s there's a very clear loss of dynamics when plugged into either a 6000/T or 6000/S versus the wall. I've heard the same thing regarding the Triton v3 which I'll be trying shortly.


I am interested to learn if there is a line between conditioners and distributors. Granted it can be blurry, in part based on how we categorize parts and functions. That's why I wanted to know what makes up a quality power distributor, at least those that make no claims about conditioning. As laid out in my first msg.
There's nothing blurry about it. A power distributor doesn't do anything other than increase the number of outlets. On the other hand, a power conditioner by defnition does some type of conditioning/treating of the incoming power. The Denali and the Triton are power conditioners. Alternatively, something like the VH Audio Hot Box is a power distributor.
 

Aussienut

New Member
Jun 22, 2017
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Australia
#28
To add my bit if it helps someone, I use a Torus AVR16 240vac to supplying Krell 400e monoblocks driving Wilson Audio Alexandria XLFs. Note the XLFs efficiency also helps somewhat.

I find the the voltage tap changer great at keeping the voltage around 240. The incoming voltage has been as high as 258vac on occasions. It also removed an intermediate problem with transformer hum on my old FPB300cx and the 400e. Various dc blockers were tried but nothing worked before the Torus. As the transformer hum could occur anytime, day or night and would last a few minutes or a few hours it was very frustrating. I isolated it as an incoming supply issue as I disconnected all other house hold devices but it still occurred.
 

BlueFox

Member Sponsor
Nov 8, 2013
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#29
The Denali is definitely not going to work on monster amps (couldn't tell you on lesser amps but from reviews it seems that it can work just fine if the amps aren't pulling a lot of juice but I would expect that's the case with most power conditioners). On my M400s there's a very clear loss of dynamics when plugged into either a 6000/T or 6000/S versus the wall. I've heard the same thing regarding the Triton v3 which I'll be trying shortly.
Speculation is fine. Just label it.
 

marty

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Far Hills, NJ
#31
I agree. It boils down to one's interpretation of what sounds better. Personally i dislike any type of series or parallel filters and a large number of "well regarded" power cords too. Dynamic killers. Others dislike any form of voltage regulation within the equipment. It all boils down to personal preference and it's impossible to generalise.
+1 There is little substitute for a well-grounded, dedicated 30 amp line
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2013
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NYC , USA
#32
the dinali will help it's not a current conditioner it's a line noise conditioner . So by Doing so it lowers the noise on the lines now does it help on amps that have massive PSU one would have to try.
I have used 10 kw bal iso transformers 220 in 125 out this lowers noise and cuts down on dc on Mains.
I even used a 20kw one as well. They helped no doubt but they also hum lol. I put mine outside and don't let any of your ausio stuff near them either
The amount of EMI IS very large and it messes with tubes even if it's 3 feet above or below
Good preamps keep the psu separate and they instruct you to keep it far away especially for phono pre
Now on my ML no 33 I don't use anything snd use one ps audio P10 for the front end and all servers and data power as well. Now for me I feel high gain matters more then a low gain amp of high power.
Also dc on mains is the biggest issue on amps Transforners above 400 watts have windings in AWG that make it worse then smaller ones
And they steal dynamics as they saturate the tranformer core.
I have measured lower psu dc buss voltage too.
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2013
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NYC , USA
#35
They dont but since most dc on the mains is phase to neutral meaning 120 it greatly lowers it if we use a 230 volt in using two phase in and we use 120 out this lowers the dc effects
The term dc on the mains is but reslly correct it's not dc really. What it really is , is a distortion of the sign wave. This is caused by noise from switching psu and large motors and tranformers.
Now there are row ways to make it better
One is bad for large power amps and in my view bad period. They use a tuned cap Choke Circuht
It blocks the dc. It anointed the sign wave distortion. But it makes the voltage and current no longer in sync and it limits corrent too.
The bal iso is better in that in lowers commen mode noise and die to phase to phase Distortion is less it helps this too.
A 10kw iso can deliver 80 amps at 120 volts ac
And 80% of this continues
A 20kw is 160 amps as above. The core can produce many times the above for very short Bursts. So big peaks on large amps should be fine.
And smaller maps Benifit greatly due to there tanny size
Bigger ones too due to larger wires size and lower impedance. But many try smaller ones then needed and they are 120 in and out and say it's bad. Yes it's very well might be.
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2013
1,059
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NYC , USA
#36
What the fuck is a current conditioner?
Bro why are you cursing st me. Ask me I'll explain if you don't understand me man. Chill a bit
A current cons for me means it works but limiting current while a line noise cond lowers noise and does not effect current flow.
Now if you curse at me again I will not answer
And don't take my calm of being stupid take it as your below me to care
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
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#37

Folsom

VIP/Donor
Oct 26, 2015
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#38
Bro why are you cursing st me. Ask me I'll explain if you don't understand me man. Chill a bit
A current cons for me means it works but limiting current while a line noise cond lowers noise and does not effect current flow.
Now if you curse at me again I will not answer
And don't take my calm of being stupid take it as your below me to care
I am not cursing at you. But I was literally baffled beyond belief as to what you were talking about.

No one sells a “current conditioner” on purpose. And no one calls a product one either. (I thought maybe there was some wacky thing you’d inform me about, that I have never seen).

It’s impossible to limit current without severing the connection or passing it through a wire that’s minuscule as to cause tunneling effect. In our case it’s probably something around a human hair derivative, at 15A.

What happens frequently is saturation. Current makes it happen, but doesn’t decrease. It however punishes the voltage severely at all the wrong times. The same goes for transformers. But there are things you can do to decrease some of these effects (I made one specifically for Equi=Tech’s that help).

And no, DC on the line is in fact DC. If it were anything else then DC blockers wouldn’t work. DC blockers don’t filter noise. They work on the same principle as capacitors in the signal path, where DC cannot pass (and cannot kill your speakers).
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
647
257
63
#39
There's nothing blurry about it. A power distributor doesn't do anything other than increase the number of outlets. On the other hand, a power conditioner by defnition does some type of conditioning/treating of the incoming power. The Denali and the Triton are power conditioners. Alternatively, something like the VH Audio Hot Box is a power distributor.
Does adding protection such as an electronmagnetic circuit breaker and/or surge/spike protection count as power conditioning?

What about the use of different materials - say a copper buss bar vs bronze - in different power distributors? Or gold plated outlets vs pure copper outlets. Is that conditioning? Do all power distributors sound the same?
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2013
1,059
42
48
NYC , USA
#40
I am not cursing at you. But I was literally baffled beyond belief as to what you were talking about.

No one sells a “current conditioner” on purpose. And no one calls a product one either. (I thought maybe there was some wacky thing you’d inform me about, that I have never seen).

It’s impossible to limit current without severing the connection or passing it through a wire that’s minuscule as to cause tunneling effect. In our case it’s probably something around a human hair derivative, at 15A.

What happens frequently is saturation. Current makes it happen, but doesn’t decrease. It however punishes the voltage severely at all the wrong times. The same goes for transformers. But there are things you can do to decrease some of these effects (I made one specifically for Equi=Tech’s that help).

And no, DC on the line is in fact DC. If it were anything else then DC blockers wouldn’t work. DC blockers don’t filter noise. They work on the same principle as capacitors in the signal path, where DC cannot pass (and cannot kill your speakers).[/Q
Just for you in simple terms no need to look for misspellings.
A transformer cannot pass dc period
It can pass a sign wave distortion.
It can make noise due it's effects
It can Achieve core saturation
It can lower the dc buss due to above
The use of a 230 volt input iso trans that uses 2 of the typical 3 phases in the USA and if the secondary is made to output 125 volt you have effectively lowered the so called dc on the mains sign wave distortion. As most is made from phase to neutral. Now is any of the above completely wrong ?
Am I to await a another temper tantrum ?
Lets help each other hear. I'm far from the brite guy here or elsewhere.



https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/understanding-dc-offset-in-ac-mains/
 

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