Anyone with big, high current amplifier(s) find a power conditioner that doesn't destroy the amplifier's virtues? Is it even possible? Which Ones?

Aussienut

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2017
27
26
80
Australia
#61
Hi All,

My experience that may help. I had a Krell FPB300cx amp before the Evo 400e monoblocks and it started to hum at random times from some external disturbance. I tried various dc blockers, disconnecting household white goods but could not eliminate the hum. I eventually spoke with the long time Australian Krell dealer Len of Len Wallis and he said in his experience with other clients having similar issues over recent years, Torus narrow band isolation transformer would remove the disturbance. And lucky for me he had just traded a AVR16 for a AVR40 unit for a client. So I tried it and the hum to this day has never came back. I contacted the manufacturer as the front faceplate had a scratch and they sold me a new faceplate and gave 5 years warranty. Great support from the manufacturer. I also contacted them when I upgraded to the 400e‘s and they reviewed the loading with the Wilson speakers and confirmed no issued with the AVR16. The higher speaker sensitivity helps as well.

It’s a great unit as it has a tap changer which keeps the out going voltage at 240 vac (Australian voltage) regardless of the input which has been as high as 260 vac. Always better to keep the voltage consistent to your audio gear as voltage fluctuation can degrade power supplies over time. It also has surge protection. The Torus supplies both monoblocks and the PS Audio P10 which feeds all the front end gear. Interestingly the AVR16 removes about 2 to 2.5% of THD but the P10 still removes another 0.5 to 1% to feed the pre amp, DAC and music server.

The Torus units are not cheap but they do offer a lot with surge protection, voltage tap changer for constant output voltage and in my case removed the intermittent transformer hum.
 

GSOphile

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2017
269
112
113
#62
I've had other conditioners that were non-limiting, so I think we're past that. The Niagara is a good example.
But the first one to actually *boost* dynamics, and make the amp sound freer, more open and relaxed, was the Gigawatt PC-4 Evo+.
With the two D'Agostino Momentum plugged, plus ARC preamp (+ sources), it's crazy dynamic. The DAC loves it too.
It's now a permanent fixture in our reference room.
There are some impressive reviews of the GigaWatt on the internet, where support includes some notable large power amps (e.g., Boulder, Solution, etc) is described. These products from Poland are not well known in the US .... but perhaps that will change.
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2013
1,626
405
315
NYC , USA
#63
Most power conditioners suck the dynamic life out of amplifiers. Anyone find a power distributor that works great with high-current amplifiers?
How large are your amps ? what voltage are they ?
Mike l is the exception as I see it. What model is the Shunyata?
I know I’m the kill joy here but im an honest one lol.
Amps can be fed with a power conditioner , but many don’t need it as they have complex internal power conditioning inside. An amp that has regulated driver and output is better off without it I think.
Ones that only regulate up to driver Stages may need it.
Answer my questions and I’ll give my view.
On my Amps I was running a cust made 20kw balanced iso.
In the end I heard no change.
If anyone is running a 230 volt amp it’s more likely not needed.
The one mike L has is a very well made unit.
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2013
1,626
405
315
NYC , USA
#64
Hi All,

My experience that may help. I had a Krell FPB300cx amp before the Evo 400e monoblocks and it started to hum at random times from some external disturbance. I tried various dc blockers, disconnecting household white goods but could not eliminate the hum. I eventually spoke with the long time Australian Krell dealer Len of Len Wallis and he said in his experience with other clients having similar issues over recent years, Torus narrow band isolation transformer would remove the disturbance. And lucky for me he had just traded a AVR16 for a AVR40 unit for a client. So I tried it and the hum to this day has never came back. I contacted the manufacturer as the front faceplate had a scratch and they sold me a new faceplate and gave 5 years warranty. Great support from the manufacturer. I also contacted them when I upgraded to the 400e‘s and they reviewed the loading with the Wilson speakers and confirmed no issued with the AVR16. The higher speaker sensitivity helps as well.

It’s a great unit as it has a tap changer which keeps the out going voltage at 240 vac (Australian voltage) regardless of the input which has been as high as 260 vac. Always better to keep the voltage consistent to your audio gear as voltage fluctuation can degrade power supplies over time. It also has surge protection. The Torus supplies both monoblocks and the PS Audio P10 which feeds all the front end gear. Interestingly the AVR16 removes about 2 to 2.5% of THD but the P10 still removes another 0.5 to 1% to feed the pre amp, DAC and music server.

The Torus units are not cheap but they do offer a lot with surge protection, voltage tap changer for constant output voltage and in my case removed the intermittent transformer hum.
Or sounds like you had dc offset on the lines. Any dc blocker is a bad idea over all
But I’ll get bashed for being honest. a large iso can fix this but it must be very large.
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2013
1,626
405
315
NYC , USA
#65
I like the HB Cable Design Powerstar Galaxy MKII and the Shunyata Research Denali Power distributors. I use both with amplifiers and prefer the sound when utilizing these products in the chain. For me these open up the sound stage and reduce noise. They give my systems more dimension. They are very enjoyable upgrades in this very addictive hobby!:)

View attachment 49574 View attachment 49576
These products work at noise and ha e no down side to them. How ever they don’t do anything for dc offset. In fact they are a passive filter.
 
Likes: DevAAudio

sujay

Member Sponsor
May 5, 2012
456
137
385
Singapore
#66
Thanks both! I have just emailed to see if I can try the Torus products...specifically at Torus AVR16.
I have been using a Bryston Bit16, essentially, the Torus AV 16 OEM for Bryston since 2014. My unit is 230V, has 12 outlets. I have plugged everything including my Burmester 911 monos and a pair of the REL G1 subs. It is fantastic! The dynamics have actually improved with a lower noise floor. I think the 3.8kva Plitron trans has got to do with that. I originally bought the unit to get rid of the buzzing that used to happen with my TV placed close to the music system. The buzzing stopped with the Bit 16. And with added benefits of improved dynamics and lower noise floor.
 
Likes: Vienna

sujay

Member Sponsor
May 5, 2012
456
137
385
Singapore
#67
Hi All,

My experience that may help. I had a Krell FPB300cx amp before the Evo 400e monoblocks and it started to hum at random times from some external disturbance. I tried various dc blockers, disconnecting household white goods but could not eliminate the hum. I eventually spoke with the long time Australian Krell dealer Len of Len Wallis and he said in his experience with other clients having similar issues over recent years, Torus narrow band isolation transformer would remove the disturbance. And lucky for me he had just traded a AVR16 for a AVR40 unit for a client. So I tried it and the hum to this day has never came back. I contacted the manufacturer as the front faceplate had a scratch and they sold me a new faceplate and gave 5 years warranty. Great support from the manufacturer. I also contacted them when I upgraded to the 400e‘s and they reviewed the loading with the Wilson speakers and confirmed no issued with the AVR16. The higher speaker sensitivity helps as well.

It’s a great unit as it has a tap changer which keeps the out going voltage at 240 vac (Australian voltage) regardless of the input which has been as high as 260 vac. Always better to keep the voltage consistent to your audio gear as voltage fluctuation can degrade power supplies over time. It also has surge protection. The Torus supplies both monoblocks and the PS Audio P10 which feeds all the front end gear. Interestingly the AVR16 removes about 2 to 2.5% of THD but the P10 still removes another 0.5 to 1% to feed the pre amp, DAC and music server.

The Torus units are not cheap but they do offer a lot with surge protection, voltage tap changer for constant output voltage and in my case removed the intermittent transformer hum.
Agree absolutely!
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
11,413
397
628
#68
Hi All,

My experience that may help. I had a Krell FPB300cx amp before the Evo 400e monoblocks and it started to hum at random times from some external disturbance. I tried various dc blockers, disconnecting household white goods but could not eliminate the hum. I eventually spoke with the long time Australian Krell dealer Len of Len Wallis and he said in his experience with other clients having similar issues over recent years, Torus narrow band isolation transformer would remove the disturbance. And lucky for me he had just traded a AVR16 for a AVR40 unit for a client. So I tried it and the hum to this day has never came back. I contacted the manufacturer as the front faceplate had a scratch and they sold me a new faceplate and gave 5 years warranty. Great support from the manufacturer. I also contacted them when I upgraded to the 400e‘s and they reviewed the loading with the Wilson speakers and confirmed no issued with the AVR16. The higher speaker sensitivity helps as well.

It’s a great unit as it has a tap changer which keeps the out going voltage at 240 vac (Australian voltage) regardless of the input which has been as high as 260 vac. Always better to keep the voltage consistent to your audio gear as voltage fluctuation can degrade power supplies over time. It also has surge protection. The Torus supplies both monoblocks and the PS Audio P10 which feeds all the front end gear. Interestingly the AVR16 removes about 2 to 2.5% of THD but the P10 still removes another 0.5 to 1% to feed the pre amp, DAC and music server.

The Torus units are not cheap but they do offer a lot with surge protection, voltage tap changer for constant output voltage and in my case removed the intermittent transformer hum.
Thank you! Did you ever listen to your source materials thru ONLY the AVR16...and compare with your source materials thru the PS10 PLUS the AVR16? Just curious more than anything else.

Really appreciate your insights on Torus.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
11,413
397
628
#69
I have been using a Bryston Bit16, essentially, the Torus AV 16 OEM for Bryston since 2014. My unit is 230V, has 12 outlets. I have plugged everything including my Burmester 911 monos and a pair of the REL G1 subs. It is fantastic! The dynamics have actually improved with a lower noise floor. I think the 3.8kva Plitron trans has got to do with that. I originally bought the unit to get rid of the buzzing that used to happen with my TV placed close to the music system. The buzzing stopped with the Bit 16. And with added benefits of improved dynamics and lower noise floor.
Great stuff! Thank you...looks now like Vienna and Ultimate Audio EU have both put Gryphon Mephistos thru an AVR16, and you have put Burmester 911 monos while Aussienut has put in Krell 400e monos. I look forward to seeing if i can get an audition!
 
Likes: sujay

Alpinist

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2014
443
62
233
USA
#70
I’ve listened to my Vandersteen M7-HPA mono amps (300/600 watts into 8/4 ohms) extensively plugged directly into my dedicated 20 amp outlets and into my two Niagara 5000’s high current outlets. I hear no reduction in dynamics going through these power conditioners but I do hear a substantial reduction in noise floor. I’m really satisfied and have stopped looking at other power conditioners.

I used to own the Niagara 7000 but it emitted an annoying hum from its large toroidal transformers. The Niagara 5000 also sounds better than the 7000 through its low current outlets with an imperceptible difference in noise reduction.

Ken
 
Last edited:
Likes: johndoe21ro

Aussienut

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2017
27
26
80
Australia
#71
Or sounds like you had dc offset on the lines. Any dc blocker is a bad idea over all
But I’ll get bashed for being honest. a large iso can fix this but it must be very large.
Agree that it would appear to be a dc offset problem as is typical for this type of hum. However as it was intermittent, could occur day or night (so couldn’t be caused by a solar panel inverter), may last 15 minutes, 1 hour or more, and may not happen for a few days and then occur, it was difficult to assess and test different devices. Tried it at a dealers premises (different feed) for several days and it couldn’t be replicated. The P10 did nothing and various Isotek and other devices were also ineffective.

So after many weeks I was glad to try the Torus and as mentioned, have not heard this problem again with the FPB300cx or my later Evo 400e’s. I would be good to know what was causing it but I lost interest once the Torus was installed.
 
Likes: Alrainbow

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2013
1,626
405
315
NYC , USA
#72
Dc offset is never steady in most cases. my ML 33 have two 2500 toroidal’s per amp
I never hear them. I can only hear them if I put my ears to the side of the amps. Also many times dc offset is a warble sound not just a hum as many say
 

Kingsrule

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2011
964
186
390
#73
Most 33's had noise issues right from leaving the factory....its was a rare pair that were perfectly quiet....
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
11,413
397
628
#74
Now trialing a Torus 3800kva AVR16 with 16 amps steady with capability to handle bursts of up to something like 300amps. The Gryphon Mephisto is plugged into it...AFTER checking first with Gryphon Head of Service, and also checking with 3 owners of Gryphons as well as Distributor of Torus. All were happy there was sufficient headroom in the Torus. The Gryphon is designed for steady high output of 10amps and 2400kva.
 

Vienna

VIP/Donor
Oct 14, 2018
406
289
145
44
#75
I am waiting for your impressions
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
11,413
397
628
#76
Hi Vienna, Ron, Aussienut, Sujay and Others,

Thanks for all your guidance! The Torus is not only in (as in, delivered/hooked up for testing), it is now neatly away on the equipment rack with all the cables re-run...just that move took 2 hours!

Here is the state of play in initial observations:

Powering ONLY the Gryphons:
1. Wait 24 hours to listen...dont know why. Brittle sound at first...but that eventually warms up over 4-5 hours. Eventually, when you turn it on, it goes to magic instantly.​
2. Upper mid bass is dramatically improved with far greater detailing of "lost" rhythms and strings​
3. MUST ground this unit and the amp...that was a big plus in creating organic nuance to the music. I had to disconnect 2 Entreq Receivus'...and use the cable to ground the Torus and Gryphon...absolutely worth doing​


Powering the Gryphons PLUS the Nordost QX4 which leads to the Burmester 948 Power Conditioner which feeds the front end (CJ GAT 2 and Zanden 4-box Digital):

1. The front end PSUs are clearly more sensitive than the big Gryphons.
2. Much greater improvement across the full spectrum, now particularly upper mids/lower treble in terms of detail
3 However, the improvement is simply the level of detail. It has not changed the voice of the system at all.
Solo sax with a bit of drums in the background is now revealed that there was a clear contrapuntal play between the sax and the drums...fun.

A great addition, and at half-off (2nd hand with 3.5 years left on warranty)...looks like i will be telling the dealer it is staying. Still want to spend another 24 hours with it.
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2013
1,626
405
315
NYC , USA
#77
Most 33's had noise issues right from leaving the factory....its was a rare pair that were perfectly quiet....
Maybe true as mine do this. But it’s only if you are on top of each amp. min fact I have yet to hear an amp that is large and not do as mine do.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
11,413
397
628
#78
Well, its been about 9 hours since the system was finally settled in after moving all the boxes...and particularly having to unplug the amps for an hour (losing capacitance) while i moved everything around.

So to be fair, in addition to the traditional 'settle in' time, the amps needed to get back up to speed as well having been left unplugged.

The system is...how do i say it...WOW!...much more 'muscular' now. It seems to be able to bring forward a band more effortlessly with power in what were once softer instruments that got lost, or with more confidence/clarity in instruments that were once 'lost in the background'. Now they have their own voice even if secondary with their own musical lines.

I dont know why/how the Torus would do this...but it managed to make music from a band seem for the first time like a jam session between 5 individual players, each of whom seems to occupy a compelling place in the room/in the musical blend of 5 different lines...as opposed to a group of 4 musical instruments blending in the background behind a main guitarist and a voice. I have not experienced this before. Very very impressive.

For anyone interested in auditioning a Torus...this is far and away without comparison to any power conditioners i have owned/tried including the Burmester 948, Nordost Qx4, Transparent Power Isolator, Nordost Thor and old PS Audio Premier 1000...all of which I have owned (other than PS Audio which I auditioned at home seriously). Each of these added nice clarity and clean up...no question about it.

But only the Torus has successfully made a fundamental step change in the quality of the system. This is far more impressive than I was expecting. I also found again that there was a significant improvement plugging in the entire front end (thru the Burmster 948) into the Torus, so now the entire system is powered by it.

Hi Vienna, Ron, Aussienut, Sujay and Others,

Thanks for all your guidance! The Torus is not only in (as in, delivered/hooked up for testing), it is now neatly away on the equipment rack with all the cables re-run...just that move took 2 hours!

Here is the state of play in initial observations:

Powering ONLY the Gryphons:
1. Wait 24 hours to listen...dont know why. Brittle sound at first...but that eventually warms up over 4-5 hours. Eventually, when you turn it on, it goes to magic instantly.​
2. Upper mid bass is dramatically improved with far greater detailing of "lost" rhythms and strings​
3. MUST ground this unit and the amp...that was a big plus in creating organic nuance to the music. I had to disconnect 2 Entreq Receivus'...and use the cable to ground the Torus and Gryphon...absolutely worth doing​


Powering the Gryphons PLUS the Nordost QX4 which leads to the Burmester 948 Power Conditioner which feeds the front end (CJ GAT 2 and Zanden 4-box Digital):

1. The front end PSUs are clearly more sensitive than the big Gryphons.
2. Much greater improvement across the full spectrum, now particularly upper mids/lower treble in terms of detail
3 However, the improvement is simply the level of detail. It has not changed the voice of the system at all.
Solo sax with a bit of drums in the background is now revealed that there was a clear contrapuntal play between the sax and the drums...fun.

A great addition, and at half-off (2nd hand with 3.5 years left on warranty)...looks like i will be telling the dealer it is staying. Still want to spend another 24 hours with it.
 
Last edited:

Vienna

VIP/Donor
Oct 14, 2018
406
289
145
44
#79
Well, its been about 9 hours since the system was finally settled in after moving all the boxes...and particularly having to unplug the amps for an hour (losing capacitance) while i moved everything around.

So to be fair, in addition to the traditional 'settle in' time, the amps needed to get back up to speed as well having been left unplugged.

The system is...how do i say it...WOW!...much more 'muscular' now. It seems to be able to bring forward a band more effortlessly with power in what were once softer instruments that got lost, or with more confidence/clarity in instruments that were once 'lost in the background'. Now they have their own voice even if secondary with their own musical lines.

I dont know why/how the Torus would do this...but it managed to make music from a band seem for the first time like a jam session between 5 individual players, each of whom seems to occupy a compelling place in the room/in the musical blend of 5 different lines...as opposed to a group of 4 musical instruments blending in the background behind a main guitarist and a voice. I have not experienced this before. Very very impressive.

For anyone interested in auditioning a Torus...this is far and away without comparison to any power conditioners i have owned/tried including the Burmester 948, Nordost Qx4, Transparent Power Isolator, Nordost Thor and old PS Audio Premier 1000...all of which I have owned (other than PS Audio which I auditioned at home seriously). Each of these added nice clarity and clean up...no question about it.

But only the Torus has successfully made a fundamental step change in the quality of the system. This is far more impressive than I was expecting. I also found again that there was a significant improvement plugging in the entire front end (thru the Burmster 948) into the Torus, so now the entire system is powered by it.
I am glad that you liked it. You will experience a greater improvement if you will change the factory power supply cable.
 
Likes: sujay

sujay

Member Sponsor
May 5, 2012
456
137
385
Singapore
#80
I find that that’s the Torus/Bryston BIT are underrated gems. They go about doing their job without hue and cry. And they don’t cost an arm and a leg.
 

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