Apogee Full range

[ddk]

Jason Bloom told me that the Diva was an "improved" speaker over the original full-range, especially with regard to phase angle issues in the midrange>bass crossover. He did say that there were tradeoffs in ultimate transparency (due to the full-range's directly-driven ribbons), but that the Diva was an easier speaker to drive. I thought that the Diva sounded better on cello than the full-ranges, but that may have been a set-up issue on my full-ranges. It pays to be careful when accusing a product when it may be our own failing that causes a perceived problem.

Lee

That's what I found too Lee but now I think part of the problem was/is the lack of suitable electronics, even with the Diva the first time I really heard them was with the Levinson 33s. I realized then that nothing I had on them before was driving them properly. The sound was always nice before but with the Levinsons the bass took on a very different quality, the breath & the depth would actually be in the Wilson X-1 world and I dare say that it was more natural and deeper than the Grand Slamm. Today we have many relatively inexpensive High powered class D amps wonder, how they do on the old Apogees.

david

 

[RBFC]

Good question.

Lee

 

[zztop7]

Yes.
If there is a jab by any members in the above posts, please >>> point it out <<< as I am confused by the "back&forth personal jabs" statement. All I see is proper & light correspondence; something to be expected among professionals.
zz.

May we please continue to discuss the speakers and desist from the unnecessary back&forth personal jabs? Our world is so filled with everybody getting offended by everything, that we don't need to promote that here. Unless another member asks you to pay for his system, there's no reason to have such vehement emotions about AUDIO.

Lee

 

[Blizzard]

May we please continue to discuss the speakers and desist from the unnecessary back&forth personal jabs? Our world is so filled with everybody getting offended by everything, that we don't need to promote that here. Unless another member asks you to pay for his system, there's no reason to have such vehement emotions about AUDIO.

Lee

Nothing personal here. And no Jabs were made. I agree 100%, and your point was the point I was trying to make.

 

[RBFC]

Then it seems we're all on the same page. Now, back to discussing Apogees.....

Lee

 

[thekong]

Any member is familiar with using Pass amps to drive Apogee, especially the Fullrange? I am thinking of changing my amps to all Pass setup, but not sure whether I should go for the X or XA series.

I am using the Aesthetix IO and Callisto Eclipse, with the Pass electronics Xover

Thanks!

 

[ddk]

Any member is familiar with using Pass amps to drive Apogee, especially the Fullrange? I am thinking of changing my amps to all Pass setup, but not sure whether I should go for the X or XA series.

I am using the Aesthetix IO and Callisto Eclipse, with the Pass electronics Xover

Thanks!

Take a look at the Lamm M2.2 too, they drive the Divas with ease.

david

 

[thekong]

David, thanks! I will check out the Lamm also.

 

[bonzo75]

Any member is familiar with using Pass amps to drive Apogee, especially the Fullrange? I am thinking of changing my amps to all Pass setup, but not sure whether I should go for the X or XA series.

I am using the Aesthetix IO and Callisto Eclipse, with the Pass electronics Xover

Thanks!

I have heard poss on duetta Sig, didn't like it. Try spectral, Lamm m2.2, ypsilon aelius - those are my top 3 to drive panels. I am a tube guy but spectral is my favorite SS amp so far though I don't like the fact they lock you in to spectral and MIT.

 

[bonzo75]

The guy who owned the FR I heard also owns diva but has them just sitting around and doesn't listen to them anymore. But he has a big room

 

[bonzo75]

The guy who owns studio grands has turned off the cones and plays the panel full range

 

[Zero000]

That's what I found too Lee but now I think part of the problem was/is the lack of suitable electronics, even with the Diva the first time I really heard them was with the Levinson 33s. I realized then that nothing I had on them before was driving them properly. The sound was always nice before but with the Levinsons the bass took on a very different quality, the breath & the depth would actually be in the Wilson X-1 world and I dare say that it was more natural and deeper than the Grand Slamm. Today we have many relatively inexpensive High powered class D amps wonder, how they do on the old Apogees.

david

This is a massive point, really. After trying 25 odd amps on my old and new Duettas, there haven't been many good ones. Three, I think, but only 2 I could live with for any long period of time.

The best are the Accuphase M-60 monos from 1975 which are in time warp condition. But if you look at the power meters you can deduce that it isn't power that makes them a good match. It is typically below 100 Watts even when quite loud. They can dump over half a KW into 4 Ohms - well beyond the rated spec.

They are just incredibly revealing of amplifier limitations when it comes down to SQ.

You can see a list of some of the amps I have tried in my earlier posts. Class D with SMPS not good. Better with linear PS and a few JFETs here and there (wink).

 

[spiritofmusic]

I have heard poss on duetta Sig, didn't like it. Try spectral, Lamm m2.2, ypsilon aelius - those are my top 3 to drive panels. I am a tube guy but spectral is my favorite SS amp so far though I don't like the fact they lock you in to spectral and MIT.

So, indeed amps ARE critical to getting the best out of planars (and other spkrs, tbh). Your statement that get the spkrs right, and amps are much of a muchness, not borne out by the Duettas sounding poor w/Pass.
Tbh, Bonzo, I really do feel these choices have plenty of pros and cons, each decision needing careful thought, rather than just blanket statements.
I remain of the opinion that my affinity w/SETs means I still wish to find spkrs that wk best w/them, and since I really like Zu and horns signature, and SETs work perfectly w/these, a move to planars would only be right FOR ME w/planars that truly are happy w/SETs. I still wait to be convinced that this will be the case, other than the illusory Definitives.
I'm not sure even the Transmitters have the reserves that Justin's Accuphases have.
The fact that the Graz Duettas/Advance 7s COULD work, or SHOULD work w/SETs doesn't totally satisfy me, esp since as per usual w/exotic gear, I am VERY unlikely to get all these choices in any room at the same time.

 

[bonzo75]

So, indeed amps ARE critical to getting the best out of planars (and other spkrs, tbh). Your statement that get the spkrs right, and amps are much of a muchness, not borne out by the Duettas sounding poor w/Pass.
Tbh, Bonzo, I really do feel these choices have plenty of pros and cons, each decision needing careful thought, rather than just blanket statements.
I remain of the opinion that my affinity w/SETs means I still wish to find spkrs that wk best w/them, and since I really like Zu and horns signature, and SETs work perfectly w/these, a move to planars would only be right FOR ME w/planars that truly are happy w/SETs. I still wait to be convinced that this will be the case, other than the illusory Definitives.
I'm not sure even the Transmitters have the reserves that Justin's Accuphases have.
The fact that the Graz Duettas/Advance 7s COULD work, or SHOULD work w/SETs doesn't totally satisfy me, esp since as per usual w/exotic gear, I am VERY unlikely to get all these choices in any room at the same time.

There are many wrong amps, and some good amps. To discard a FR for a duetta because the latter might work on SETs is just a big wrong

 

[spiritofmusic]

You're probably right. But I feel I get things from SETs that I don't want to discard, and since I get a rush from horns that are so right for SETs, this isn't a decisive issue re interesting choices.
W/horns and SETs, i CAN have it all.
What is fascinating is that you are making definitive black and white statements, others offer more light and shade. So, good to get the tabloid headline from you, but the news story underneath can be fleshed out by others.

 

[Zero000]

Marc - there's no point in having power reserves if the reserve isn't being used. That's the point - they really aren't consuming a lot of power until the wick is turned up A LOT.

The post is saying SQ is NOT related to huge reserves. Read Martin Colloms Duetta Signature review from 1986. It is the best there is on the topic in my opinion though some of the criticisms don't apply to Interstellas.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Marc - there's no point in having power reserves if the reserve isn't being used. That's the point - they really aren't consuming a lot of power until the wick is turned up A LOT.

The post is saying SQ is NOT related to huge reserves. Read Martin Colloms Duetta Signature review from 1986. It is the best there is on the topic in my opinion though some of the criticisms don't apply to Interstellas.

Justin, I listen a fair degree louder than Peter, but prob not as loud as you or Bonzo. For me it is critical I maintain SET signature in my sound. So FRs are out, no matter how superior o'all the sound is, and Duettas are in if the marriage w/Nat SETs isn't a stormy or demanding one.
The concept does require me to somewhat suspend disbelief. Partly because I will never hear the complete: tt>Nats SETs>Graz Duetta chain until it's in my room (whereas demo of: tt>Nats SETs>Omegas is practical). Partly because there seem to be few reports of tradition/experiences online of Apogees w/tubes. Partly because my SETs are already 110% proven w.my Zus/horns.

 

[bonzo75]

You're probably right. But I feel I get things from SETs that I don't want to discard, and since I get a rush from horns that are so right for SETs, this isn't a decisive issue re interesting choices.
W/horns and SETs, i CAN have it all.
What is fascinating is that you are making definitive black and white statements, others offer more light and shade. So, good to get the tabloid headline from you, but the news story underneath can be fleshed out by others.

No, you are making definitive black and white statements that SETs are the only way to go. Depends which horns. A Krell with Acoustat 1+1 (used price 1k) will be much superior to SET with Duo.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bonzo, to be clear, I am saying I'm not prepared to relinquish SETs. Ever. The Nats go alongside me in my coffin when I get buried. I never make any comments on how others should go, or definitive overviews, preferring to leave that to others w/black and white brains. I like the signature, I struggle w/EVERY ss amp I hear now having moved to tubes. The synergy w/Zu is spooky, but horns really speak to me, and having heard Trios/231 subs, Cessaro Liszts w/SS and SETs, AG Duos w/SETs, my choice in horns if I go down this avenue will be Trios XD/B'horns if the demo in Monaco goes well. Are we ok on this?
Interestingly, I've read a very long discourse w/Gallant Diva on running his Full Ranges w/multiple amps, esp Tube Research monoblocks, 6 in his room, and passive and active 3-way crossovers. He absolutely loves the sound, but highlights a no-no for me, which is they sound poor at low levels, and have to be cranked up to give of their best. This is absolutely NOT an issue for Zus or Trios/horns generally I believe, and would be a major turn off for me.

 

[spiritofmusic]

A Krell with Acoustat 1+1 (used price 1k) will be much superior to SET with Duo.[/QUOTE]

That's SO good to know.