Are SOTA systems worth the effort?

[sbo6]

Two minutes in and I already disagree with SG. 6 figure systems don't exists "only for the rich". And many of us don't also own expensive boats, super expensive cars, etc. Many of us are budget conscious and trade up equipment, buying used or demo gear so the total cost isn't close to MSRP. Also, it can take many years to trade up and procure 6 figure systems. I don't see too many on WBF with a $200,000+ system at 28, most of us are ~45+ I'd wager.

Can't wait to watch the rest ;-)

And skimming through the rest I come away with - Steve G. is old school in his audio choices and isn't really up on the times. For example Klipsch CornHalls as his most desired speaker? Really? No streaming? And it's not about age, many of us are older, but rather than be complacent we embrace technology and its sonic benefits. Sometimes change is good.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Two minutes in and I already disagree with SG. 6 figure systems don't exists "only for the rich". And many of us don't also own expensive boats, super expensive cars, etc. Many of us are budget conscious and trade up equipment, buying used or demo gear so the total cost isn't close to MSRP. Also, it can take many years to trade up and procure 6 figure systems. I don't see too many on WBF with a $200,000+ system at 28, most of us are ~45+ I'd wager.

Can't wait to watch the rest ;-)

Otherwise known as "paying your dues".

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thanks...which ones are those? I just looked up Bill Malcolm horns, but it did not come up with anything?

Visit to Audiophile Bill to hear his horns project

Part One Hi everyone. I've known Bill via the forum after an introduction from Ked, and have struck up a solid friendship predominantly online, and a small handful of meets over the years. He's always been a great person to turn to, his help has been invaluable to getting my system to...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[microstrip]

Well, he uses the Devialet as an example of something affordable that has SOTA sound...sorry to say it doesn't. A friend had 3 of these amps and now has none because, well I kept bringing over better sounding amps to his place and he finally realized they weren't all that. Maybe they are good compared to 5 figure SS amps these days...

A case where preference will affect our view of SOTA in stereo. I have listened to the current top Devialet units and I can easily consider them as SOTA, although not exactly my cup of tea. But for those praising detail, control and power it is great choice. If someone praises amplified music, realistic levels and electronic music this is a great amplifier.
Still regret never being ale to listen to the Devialet's using the Taiko Audio server - I have news that it is a real upgrade - some people I know still prefer using it with an excellent external DAC.

BTW, the latest Devialet's sound much better than previous versions. A pity Devialet is currently focusing just on their active Phantom speakers and are neglecting the top Expert Pro models.

 

[Gregadd]

This is a common misnomer. most real estate appreciates however a) taking into inflation not as much as many think b) From a TCO perspective, it's a loss. Between repairs, maintenance, taxes, loan compound interest.

Net - homes aren't an investment as much as a necessary evil. You need to live somewhere, might as well pay a portion of the loan to principal and build equity hopefully by capitalizing on housing price increases above inflation.

You are confusing appreciation with net profit or capital gain. A sound analysis nonetheless.

 

[morricab]

A case where preference will affect our view of SOTA in stereo. I have listened to the current top Devialet units and I can easily consider them as SOTA, although not exactly my cup of tea. But for those praising detail, control and power it is great choice. If someone praises amplified music, realistic levels and electronic music this is a great amplifier.
Still regret never being ale to listen to the Devialet's using the Taiko Audio server - I have news that it is a real upgrade - some people I know still prefer using it with an excellent external DAC.

BTW, the latest Devialet's sound much better than previous versions. A pity Devialet is currently focusing just on their active Phantom speakers and are neglecting the top Expert Pro models.

I think you are confusing the terms "high end" and "SOTA". Are Devialet amps high end? Arguably yes and they do tick the boxes with regard to detail, apparent transparency and control. My friend and I are both big prog rock fans (as well as some electronica) so we do quite a bit of listening to prog rock on his system, so when I say that they were bettered by other amp types I am also referring amplified music (King Crimson, Yes, Pink Floyd, Rush etc.) and not just classical quartets and Jazz ensembles. Is the Devialet SOTA? No, not really close in terms of the way it portrays peformers on a stage, natural presentation of tonality, dynamics are not SOTA (it sounds relatively flat dynamically despite the high power capability) and images themselves are flattened. So, perhaps high end but definitely not SOTA.

I just remembered that i have another friend who had the top pro expert model in monoblocks in a second system... that didn't sound particularly nice at all and he realized this once he had a serious system to compare with. Those left his house rather quickly...

We did have better luck using it purely as a power amp driven from it's analog input (yes, I know it is digitized and then made analog again) with a good outboard DAC. This suggests that a lot of the digital section and preamp is not SOTA. The phonostage that is built-in is a disaster and one of the worst I have heard...instantly a no go.

 

[marslo]

Interesting thread , it's more about life choices and values and less about audio gear itself.
For me the purchase of very expensive goods is a kind of a sin .
My first salary was around 30 usd in 83 and when the transition of Polish economy came in 88/89 I begun to make money with our first private business , starting from scratch with my friends . During this time I searched for books about the lifestyle of Polish people before second WW and how to deal with money .I understood that the reserves and savings are important .
When I sold my shares in our very succesfull first business to our Dutch partner in 98 I became financialy independent , being 39.
I decided to start a new, small family business but also have purchased our first flat in France as a secondary residence and our first boat - Four Winns Vista 258. And I passed the exam in the harbour of Cannes in French to have my Permis Cotier, I did not have any experience with boating before. My goal was to try a new business but also have time to enjoy life.
Our first small flat was replaced by the second one and then by the house.
We have also built our new main residence in Poland. But I still had my small hifi system based on JM Lab PS 5.1 monitors.
Then some health problems appeared and I could not play tennis as often as I did before.
Audio was a natural compensation
Also because of the size of our living room I wanted bigger speakers , unfortunately I didn't know very much about accoustic treatment under this time
The audio forums were the way to go , I also started to attend audio shows like Warsaw and Munich .
Because of rather difficult room accoustics with big windows I was advised to try effective speakers and I purchased my first Duo Omega G2 in 2010. Then I tried to improve all elements of the system , learning from forums, shows, audio press and friends.
I consider music to be more important than the audio gear and try to keep my spendings under control , setting some limits to the prices I am willing to pay, even if I could afford more expensive goods.
I do not want the best ,I just want good enough
As far as boats are concerned I enjoy Chaparral 275 SSi and Les Iles Lerins close to Cannes .After 11 seasons in France the engin counts only 206 hours .
Within 3 years I will retire at the age of 65 and do hope to be still involved in our family business but mainly have time for music and audio in our two residences in Poland and France.
Ked says that Trios are among the best I can have , this time I won't argue with him
BTW I do not care if they are SOTA or not

 

[bonzo75]

You are too old for another table tennis match I will let you win next time

 

[Solypsa]

@marslo Thanks for sharing your personal story!

 

[stehno]

Around 1500 words about the placebo effect, some insinuations about the brands he hates and tells us about his favorite speaker - fortunately we had much better writings about this subject in WBF. Anyway it was nice to see that Soundstage banners promote Crystal Cable and Siltech ...

If I thought you had a sense of human I'd say, you've got to be joking. Instead you leave me no choice but to say, what nonsense.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Is the Devialet SOTA? No, not really close in terms of the way it portrays peformers on a stage, natural presentation of tonality, dynamics are not SOTA (it sounds relatively flat dynamically despite the high power capability) and images themselves are flattened. So, perhaps high end but definitely not SOTA. (...)

Current Devialet Expert Pro sounding dynamically flat and flattened images? Surely a poor system match.

But I can easily understand that people who love SET sound will dislike the Devialet.

BTW, do you consider Solution or D'Agostino SOTA?

 

[Atmasphere]

I've thought SOTA to be well worth the effort.

But I can also safely say that cost isn't the driving factor of high end audio and it never has been, although its certainly an influence.

Its intention.

Those who think otherwise are doomed to spend lots of money needlessly, often with frustrating results.

At 2:22 in the video you can see Steve struggling with this- he heard, apparently, a variety of expensive systems that just didn't bring home the bacon. This wasn't because they were too expensive, it was because they didn't bring home the bacon. Oddly, pragmatism is rare in this sport so the glaringly obvious (to me anyway) is somehow ignored here. If I had to guess, I'd say that Steve doesn't know what high end audio even is because he thinks its related to price when it isn't so much.

Put another way, the most expensive systems are highly unlikely to be the state of the art because of the simple reason that they are most likely made to make money. Anyone that knows human nature knows that the best doctor, the best attorney, the best pilot and so on are not the best because they got into the sport to make money. They are the best because they are driven to do so- they do it because they love it. High end audio is no different in this regard. As a result the state of the art is very likely to not also be the most expensive. It will be that which is the best because the competent designer that made it intended it that way.

 

[morricab]

Current Devialet Expert Pro sounding dynamically flat and flattened images? Surely a poor system match.

But I can easily understand that people who love SET sound will dislike the Devialet.

BTW, do you consider Solution or D'Agostino SOTA?

Soulution, no... D'Agostino haven't heard enough to judge...they look cool though..perhaps SOTA looks

 

[microstrip]

(...) Put another way, the most expensive systems are highly unlikely to be the state of the art because of the simple reason that they are most likely made to make money. Anyone that knows human nature knows that the best doctor, the best attorney, the best pilot and so on are not the best because they got into the sport to make money. They are the best because they are driven to do so- they do it because they love it. High end audio is no different in this regard. As a result the state of the art is very likely to not also be the most expensive. It will be that which is the best because the competent designer that made it intended it that way.

Reading interviews and speaking with them I found that the manufacturers and designers of most expensive brands are enthusiasts and love the hobby and music, as well as many distributors and dealers of such brands. Surely in all activities we have success and failure. Stereo is very subjective and diverse, so it is extremely difficult to find a definition of SOTA that pleases all WBF members.

Should I add that I consider that the expensive top units of a brand founded by tow economists, Lew Johnson and Bill Conrad, are high-end SOTA?

 

[cjfrbw]

My main objection to the edifice systems isn't merely cost, is that they are inflexible and cumbersome. It's like a heavy piece of sculpture, and if you don't like it the way it is, then too bad. Also, SOTA is a constantly shifting commercial sand. Just wait, it won't be SOTA for long.

It doesn't matter how much they cost or what they sound like, your ear brain system will identify their specific characteristics after a while, get used to them, and find something to object to. Crawling around changing cables to 'tune' them isn't my idea of a good time, or flying in a crew to haul them around, or having a guy come over for the weekend to adjust a turntable, arm or cartridge. Or the repairs and shipping when something goes wrong, and something ALWAYS goes wrong. I like flexibility and the ability to handle a certain amount of the inevitable gremlins and electrical storms without the cavalry.

All that stuff erodes listening time. I'm fine if somebody else wants them and sets them up for pride or ownership or whatever, and I can go listen to them once in a while. I want to listen more than fuss at this point. I don't want to be a curator for the toe stubbers and their mythologies. Some guys like being curators and that is fine, too.

I was offered a couple of years ago a pair of Avalon Osiris speakers to 'store' for an audiophile who wanted to buy them, and he said I could install them and listen to them in my main system for the year or three before he wanted them back. I declined just because I didn't want those massive things in the listening room. I'm sure that they are wonderful speakers in the right setup, just not what I want to have around.

I have so many ways of diversifying my system with amps, tubes, equalization, surround modes etc. there is no reason for things to ever sound exactly the same for the nervosa disease, and I can lift and carry all the items myself. I can change things out easily and quickly. The main system is intoxicating already, fills me with wonderment and joy, and I have heard quite a few systems at this point at all costs and sizes.

 

[spiritofmusic]

How many buyers get "bored" of their Paganis/La Ferraris/Veyrons, and find something to "irritate" them about their driving experiences?
Ditto wearing any number of high worth watches?
Etc etc.

 

[morricab]

How many buyers get "bored" of their Zondas/La Ferraris/Veyrons, and find something to "irritate" them about their driving experiences?
Ditto wearing any number of high worth watches?
Etc etc.

The used market here in Switzerland is full of Ferraris, Lambos, Aston Martins and even McLarens...guess at least some of those were people who got "bored" with their supercars...

Can't imagine getting irritated wearing a high worth watch...not a great example...

 

[Addicted to hifi]

I never get bored or sick of my hifi system.the more I listen to it the more I like it.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The used market here in Switzerland is full of Ferraris, Lambos, Aston Martins and even McLarens...guess at least some of those were people who got "bored" with their supercars...

Can't imagine getting irritated wearing a high worth watch...not a great example...

Richness for show doesn t make you happy .

If you have a regular ferrari there is always the chance a Veyron will pass you by and you will feel like a loser , it never aint enough .
If you have a Magico A5 you want a M3 if you have a wilson alexia you want a XVX .
If you have denon 103 cart you want a VDH colibri ,......

 

[Atmasphere]

My main objection to the edifice systems isn't merely cost, is that they are inflexible and cumbersome. It's like a heavy piece of sculpture, and if you don't like it the way it is, then too bad. Also, SOTA is a constantly shifting commercial sand. Just wait, it won't be SOTA for long.

It doesn't matter how much they cost or what they sound like, your ear brain system will identify their specific characteristics after a while, get used to them, and find something to object to. Crawling around changing cables to 'tune' them isn't my idea of a good time, or flying in a crew to haul them around, or having a guy come over for the weekend to adjust a turntable, arm or cartridge. Or the repairs and shipping when something goes wrong, and something ALWAYS goes wrong. I like flexibility and the ability to handle a certain amount of the inevitable gremlins and electrical storms without the cavalry.

All that stuff erodes listening time. I'm fine if somebody else wants them and sets them up for pride or ownership or whatever, and I can go listen to them once in a while. I want to listen more than fuss at this point. I don't want to be a curator for the toe stubbers and their mythologies. Some guys like being curators and that is fine, too.

I was offered a couple of years ago a pair of Avalon Osiris speakers to 'store' for an audiophile who wanted to buy them, and he said I could install them and listen to them in my main system for the year or three before he wanted them back. I declined just because I didn't want those massive things in the listening room. I'm sure that they are wonderful speakers in the right setup, just not what I want to have around.

I have so many ways of diversifying my system with amps, tubes, equalization, surround modes etc. there is no reason for things to ever sound exactly the same for the nervosa disease, and I can lift and carry all the items myself. I can change things out easily and quickly. The main system is intoxicating already, fills me with wonderment and joy, and I have heard quite a few systems at this point at all costs and sizes.

Someone once told me that a good stereo should sound great and last a long time. I took that to heart. I don't like having to tweak things to get it to sound right and I don't. IMO/IME it should be plug and play.