I've been trying to keep an open mind, but I just can't buy it. Copper wire, copper spade, copper banana...how can they not sound the same? Tension? Please!!!!!!
Bare Wire, Banana or Spade connections. Can you hear a difference?
- Thread starter Johnny Vinyl
- Start date
Ralph is on to something regarding damping factor. I have specific resistors for my speakers based on whether I'm using a tube or SS power amp. How that relates to spades and banana's I don't know. I wouldnt lose much sleep over it Johhny.
I use banana plugs for the amp WBT-06OO and Audioquest spades for the speakers, for ease of use.
Get yourself a 6 digit DVM and see if you still say that. You can see "tension" variations easily. Are you suggesting that even though its measurable, it can't be heard?
If the output impedance of your amp is only 0.05 ohms, you probably aren't going to hear such things as I mentioned earlier. If your amplifier output impedance is a lot more, small variations can have tipping points in the amplifier's relationship to the speaker.
Haha! No sleep lost Christian...I can assure you. I started the thread purely out of interest.....and I'm not re-terminating my cables either to find out.
So here's a question.
I have copper spades on amp and speaker terminals and tighten them (a touch) with a pair of pliers after I've hand tightened.
I clean all my contacts every six months or so and still find some "debris / discoloration" on the q-tip after cleaning the spades. I assume that's indicative of oxidation.
I have copper spades on amp and speaker terminals and tighten them (a touch) with a pair of pliers after I've hand tightened.
I clean all my contacts every six months or so and still find some "debris / discoloration" on the q-tip after cleaning the spades. I assume that's indicative of oxidation.
Heya Atmasphere,
to put it into perspective what amp output impedance are you considering?
0.5ohms to 1ohms or needs to be a bit higher like a fair few tube amps?
I appreciate this is further compounded by frequency that can also have an impact on amps spec.
Cheers
Orb
No worries!
With regards to output impedance, I think you are looking at the connection thing backwards and so it seems counterintuitive.If you look at it from the speaker point of view, anything prior to the speaker is the output impedance of the amp (for solid state people, read: damping factor) and you would be surprised how quickly things like that can add up. Again, its far more audible when the amp is driving a low impedance speaker than when its driving a higher impedance. Low impedance speakers are problematic that way (and by no means is that the only way). Our big amps are particularly good at driving Sound Labs, and curiously that speaker is particularly revealing of loose speaker connections at either end of the speaker cable. I think they might be the most dramatic example of that I can think of.
Sounds like you might live near the coast?? If the environment is troublesome, the Cardas posts are available in plated versions.
I still don't get it either on the impedance thing. I own Soundlabs with the devilish sub 1 ohm impedance in the upper range of frequencies. Yes it would be more effected by additional resistance than other speakers. Yet it seems an amp with higher output impedance would be less effected as the speaker sees it rather than more effected.
Devialet product would be perfect to test it with regards to exceptionally low output impedance.
Probably one of the best out there measured in terms of spec and performance for output impedance with frequency.
Cheers
Orb
Yes I like the looks and design as well as the performance of the Devialet. It has a very, very low specified output impedance. I likely would need the 400 or 800 model. Those are above what is a comfortable budget for my audio needs. Perhaps the 400 model on the second hand market in a year or two would work. I very much like everything together in one quality package.
The amp I use is a switching amp (Wyred4Sound ST500) which does amazingly well with the difficult and power hungry Soundlabs. It has a output impedance with is very low itself. As well as quite good specs though generally not quite the equal of the Devialet gear in SNR.
No worries!
With regards to output impedance, I think you are looking at the connection thing backwards and so it seems counterintuitive.
Sounds like you might live near the coast?? If the environment is troublesome, the Cardas posts are available in plated versions.
Uh, no, the speaker sees the impedance of its connector, the wire, the connector on the amp, and the amp's output impedance. They are all in series so it doesn't really matter where along the link they lie (this is not a distributed RF system). That is essentially what you are saying. The argument that it makes more difference for a low-Z speaker makes perfect sense to me; that lower connection impedance makes more difference for a hi-Z amp does not (to me). The lower the amplifier's output impedance the better "control" of the speaker it provides and the more sensitive the link is to higher-impedance connections. I think maybe I must have misunderstood your comment about higher amplifier impedance making series resistance matter more.
It is pretty easy, well not all that easy, to measure connection resistance with a good meter. The last time I did it I used a very good meter (HP 3458A, about $10k). You can measure the difference from a loose to snug to very tight connection. However, relative to cable and amplifier output impedance, the difference was order(s) of magnitude, especially at HF where amplifier output impedance rises. I've not been able to hear the difference unless things were very botched but that is just me. I can't imagine hearing the difference between a spade and bare wire when both are sufficiently tightened, ditto a decent banana plug (decent being the caveat; they generally do not have positive capture and do not provide as low impedance as spades or bare wire). I did not hear any difference switching from standard Ni-plated jacks to pure copper jacks on my Counterpoint, either, but again solely my opinion. The difference in Fermi levels for different material connections is easy to show but hard to measure (and impossible to hear, for me).
IMO the speaker cable connections do matter... the combination of binding post and speaker cable connector can make a pretty big difference, especially a pure copper vs cheap brass connector, there is a big difference there!
On torque, Furutech sells a line of (very pricey) "torque-guard" binding posts that have a preset torque value using a spring/clutch mechanism so you get the same torque at each post, every time. I have gotten demo speaker cables back with indentations in the spades, which are thick Furutech UPOCC copper spades, UPOCC copper is fairly hard compared to the typical crimp-on copper spades and not easy to put indentations in!
On bananas, I only offer locking bananas from Neotech, Furutech and WBT, they are all very good but locking bananas are more expensive than spades and imo you sacrifice a bit of connection quality for convenience, but the locking models are pretty nice.
Furutech vs WBT... both very good and hard to go wrong, the totl WBTs are silver and totl Furutech will be plated pure copper. The Furutech carbon fiber connectors have a lot of thought put into vibrational damping and it works very well, the WBT spades have a sandwich construction with an elastic material in the middle to control torque and damp the connector. The WBTs are a bit brighter in the upper frequencies, the Furutech rhodium plated connectors are pretty close but with fuller bass. The Furutech gold plated connectors are good if you want a more laid back connector. I think a good value connector is the Furutech FT-211 / FT-212 spades and bananas, they are a fraction of the price of the carbon fiber versions but still have a nice damped housing and good strain relief. Both totl WBTs or Furutechs are $100+ per connector, but both sound great... the Furutech's construction quality is unsurpassed, these are overbuilt and are of amazing quality.
Not everyone is going to maintain their cables and connectors properly so I like to mitigate the issue... plated connectors and binding posts are my preference and I use Caig to keep corrosion at bay at the wire/connector interface. I am about to try out a silicon conformal coating for PCBs made by MG Chemical, it has a dielectric constant of 1.99 and brushes on, plus there is a stripper that will remove it. I think this is a better solution than potting cable ends as the ends can be reused and the dielectric properties of the coating are better than any potting materials I have looked into... 1.99 is about the same as teflon so it should be sonically neutral and it will eliminate the requirement of periodic cleaning or applying Caig.
I have been asked to re-terminate cables and the ones I have worked on have had corrosion in the interface between the connector and the wire every time. One was a $3k IC and $8k speaker cable where the manufacturer claimed the conductor was immune to corrosion, they used cheap Neutrik connectors and there was plenty of corrosion in the interface area. After seeing this I started a thread on the subject in my forum on Audiocircle, many people do not want a potted or coated connector despite the fact that corrosion is likely, they would rather do the maintenance as they are worried the coating will decrease sound quality. An equal amount of people thought a coating was a good idea, so I will use it if it does not effect sound quality and give people an option to not have it if they wish. AC connections are very sensitive to corrosion and unfortunately unplated AC connectors are very common, these need frequent maintenance.
On torque, Furutech sells a line of (very pricey) "torque-guard" binding posts that have a preset torque value using a spring/clutch mechanism so you get the same torque at each post, every time. I have gotten demo speaker cables back with indentations in the spades, which are thick Furutech UPOCC copper spades, UPOCC copper is fairly hard compared to the typical crimp-on copper spades and not easy to put indentations in!
On bananas, I only offer locking bananas from Neotech, Furutech and WBT, they are all very good but locking bananas are more expensive than spades and imo you sacrifice a bit of connection quality for convenience, but the locking models are pretty nice.
Furutech vs WBT... both very good and hard to go wrong, the totl WBTs are silver and totl Furutech will be plated pure copper. The Furutech carbon fiber connectors have a lot of thought put into vibrational damping and it works very well, the WBT spades have a sandwich construction with an elastic material in the middle to control torque and damp the connector. The WBTs are a bit brighter in the upper frequencies, the Furutech rhodium plated connectors are pretty close but with fuller bass. The Furutech gold plated connectors are good if you want a more laid back connector. I think a good value connector is the Furutech FT-211 / FT-212 spades and bananas, they are a fraction of the price of the carbon fiber versions but still have a nice damped housing and good strain relief. Both totl WBTs or Furutechs are $100+ per connector, but both sound great... the Furutech's construction quality is unsurpassed, these are overbuilt and are of amazing quality.
Not everyone is going to maintain their cables and connectors properly so I like to mitigate the issue... plated connectors and binding posts are my preference and I use Caig to keep corrosion at bay at the wire/connector interface. I am about to try out a silicon conformal coating for PCBs made by MG Chemical, it has a dielectric constant of 1.99 and brushes on, plus there is a stripper that will remove it. I think this is a better solution than potting cable ends as the ends can be reused and the dielectric properties of the coating are better than any potting materials I have looked into... 1.99 is about the same as teflon so it should be sonically neutral and it will eliminate the requirement of periodic cleaning or applying Caig.
I have been asked to re-terminate cables and the ones I have worked on have had corrosion in the interface between the connector and the wire every time. One was a $3k IC and $8k speaker cable where the manufacturer claimed the conductor was immune to corrosion, they used cheap Neutrik connectors and there was plenty of corrosion in the interface area. After seeing this I started a thread on the subject in my forum on Audiocircle, many people do not want a potted or coated connector despite the fact that corrosion is likely, they would rather do the maintenance as they are worried the coating will decrease sound quality. An equal amount of people thought a coating was a good idea, so I will use it if it does not effect sound quality and give people an option to not have it if they wish. AC connections are very sensitive to corrosion and unfortunately unplated AC connectors are very common, these need frequent maintenance.
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
^^ So it sounds like we are on the same page then as I agree with Don's post as well? I don't like most bananas because they have poor connections, but the ones that allow you to tighten them seem to be just fine.
The Sound Lab's lowest impedance is actually between 1.5-3 ohms @ 20KHz depending on the position of the brilliance control. What is important to understand about the speaker is that its impedance curve is not related to its efficiency like a box speaker generally is. Its based on a capacitor. So the ability to double power as impedance is halved is not so beneficial with a speaker like this, and explains why zero feedback OTLs like we make can drive the speaker so well, despite their rather high output impedance. The MA-1 (which is the smallest amp in our lineup that I would recommend for Sound Labs) has an output impedance of about 2.3 ohms but does just fine on this speaker as long as the raw power requirements are sufficient.
BTW, and you can PM me on this if you like, are you aware that there is a new backpanel (introduced 2 years ago) that sounds better and makes the speaker easier to drive? Regardless of the amp you have the update is worthwhile! If you don't have the backpanel there are some simple mods that will get you about 90% of the way there. We have a lot of Sound Lab customers
The Sound Lab's lowest impedance is actually between 1.5-3 ohms @ 20KHz depending on the position of the brilliance control. What is important to understand about the speaker is that its impedance curve is not related to its efficiency like a box speaker generally is. Its based on a capacitor. So the ability to double power as impedance is halved is not so beneficial with a speaker like this, and explains why zero feedback OTLs like we make can drive the speaker so well, despite their rather high output impedance. The MA-1 (which is the smallest amp in our lineup that I would recommend for Sound Labs) has an output impedance of about 2.3 ohms but does just fine on this speaker as long as the raw power requirements are sufficient.
BTW, and you can PM me on this if you like, are you aware that there is a new backpanel (introduced 2 years ago) that sounds better and makes the speaker easier to drive? Regardless of the amp you have the update is worthwhile! If you don't have the backpanel there are some simple mods that will get you about 90% of the way there. We have a lot of Sound Lab customers
Hi esldude could you please let me know the model of your Soundlabs ????? Thank You
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
partially...... I may agree that you can measure connection resistance, but that still doesn't mean you can measure/hear a difference in sound related to it. You may be correct that your amps, and your amps only exhibit this trait, but the speakers/amps that I tried don't do this....
What amps are you using? I can''t tell from your profile. Anyone with an SET should hear the same thing- I don't think its limited to us.
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