Sure, there has to be common language, and the terms that you cited are fine and easily understandable. You can't talk about a holistic approach to sound reproduction without defining its parts.
"Black Backgrounds" in Music Reproduction?
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
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Sure, there has to be common language, and the terms that you cited are fine and easily understandable. You can't talk about a holistic approach to sound reproduction without defining its parts.
Agreed. The ambient noise, of course, also depends upon where one lives, whether the HVAC is running, etc. Sometimes, one reads about an audiophile who literally turns off the fridge while listening in order to achieve a low ambient environment. Sometimes it makes me wonder what we strange hobbyists are after. One reviewer joked about wanting to kill the insects outside his listening window because the sound they produced was interfering with his review. Inky blacks have their consequences!
Anyone who uses high quality headphones and the entire chain understands black background
It’s not no ambient it’s the sounds each being in there own space
Even studio recordings have ambient noise
Hum or chairs or breathing.
a low noise floor allows this noise
to me live small venue yield the best ambient sound possible
but even there black between notes is there.
tape gives this I think more then digital does at times in the tape is close to the Master.
if we change interconnects and use one that roll off highs a bit yields black but st the expense of ambience
It’s not no ambient it’s the sounds each being in there own space
Even studio recordings have ambient noise
Hum or chairs or breathing.
a low noise floor allows this noise
to me live small venue yield the best ambient sound possible
but even there black between notes is there.
tape gives this I think more then digital does at times in the tape is close to the Master.
if we change interconnects and use one that roll off highs a bit yields black but st the expense of ambience
Try spending time in a vocal booth in a recording studio, most people freak out after short time. You can hear your own heartbeat.
...hey! it was not a fridge! It was a wine cooler. Er, well...and the aircon. Unless it's winter. Then it's the furnace. And only when hifi pals are over. Usually only then.
And hopefully, I remember to turn stuff back on. Am I OK?
Admission: We have a pantry room next to kitchen with commercial fridge and freezer that are LOUD when in cooling mode so I close that door when listening at night BUT the temp goes up ~ 10 degrees so a month ago an exhaust fan was installed that holds increase to ~ 2 degrees.
Food items were not holding up as long before and wife unhappy
it is so good to hear from you! When you didn't post again I wondered if some of the spoiled food had...well...
Good to know it is only the wine cooler. That wine-in-a-box actually tastes better a little warmer.
...wine in a box?! What kind of joint do you think I'm running over here? OK. Don't answer that one...
sorry! When you posted a recent video of your setup, I noticed a bong with what looked like wine in it. I assumed you wouldn't use the good stuff for the bong. My apologies for implying otherwise!
OK, I get it. One needs language to describe what a component sounds like. We can choose to use the language we want. I actually do understand these terms: black background, pinpoint images, stark outlines. It is appropriate that the thread title mentions "Music Reproduction". I have heard these terms from systems but they are not what I experience when listening to live music or when listing to the presentation of my own system.
I deleted that post because it was redundant. What I do find fascinating is that some use such different language to describe live music from reproduced music. "Black background" is not what I think of as "common language". And then when it becomes "inky black and liquid", well, I think of Texas, not music or even good music reproduction.
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Yes, but I'm also saying that a black background often is NOT a subjective preference.
Whether you consider ambiance a type of noise or not is just semantics. It is noise because it isn't music, but it's also a subjective necessity. I gave the example of my friend adding ambiance to his electronic music as an example, the music sounds off without any sort of ambient noise. It's like how an anechoic chamber sounds unnatural, people often don't like being in an anechoic chamber because they aren't used to the black background.
My overall point was there are a lot of sources of noise, some like ambient noise can be good. Others may be bad. It's really hard to tell what someone is really talking about when they simply say "noise" because there are so many sources with so many different effects.
So, to you hopkins, "black background means that you have a sense that all of the information is being presented? I assume you mean all the information on a given recording is being presented by a system in a room. Strangely, I think of the opposite. I think if the background is black, what am I not hearing? The background at the concert hall is never black to me. Not even before the performance starts, nor between the notes. There is always residual energy in the room. I hear it from my seat on the orchestra floor or at my table in the jazz bar or club. I also hear that energy presented by good systems if it is captured on the recording. To not hear it, tell me the recording is missing it, that the system is incapable of presenting it, or that the room is absorbing it. Another possibility is that the system and or room is designed to eliminate it in order to enhance other information on the recording. This is also quite prevalent and chosen as a preference.
Yes, I am avoiding the term "noise" in my posts because I think of ambiance as energy in a space created by created by the musicians. It describes and defines the nature of that space. Noise confuses the issue. Is it someone coughing or tube rush? I seek clarity not confusion from language about live music and reproduced music. That we have discussed the term "black background" so many times in different threads tells me it is a confusing term and we should look for other language to describe what we hear.
The closest I have been to being in an anechoic chamber is the booth that I sit in when my audiologist is testing my hearing. I agree that it is a decidedly unnatural environment.
Ambient noise is not the same as system noise. Those are two separate animals.
As far as different terminology, I don't recall seeing any suggestions.
Tom
As far as different terminology, I don't recall seeing any suggestions.
Tom
Yes, this is what I mentioned in my 1st post. Two types of "black":
1. It's possible to lower noise and achieve a "black background" in a way that seems to remove a lot of fine detail along with the noise. So you have a calm, noise-free background but it sounds bad and unnatural. I have experienced this before, a high end system using a lot of the most hyped modern hifi gear, it presented pinpoint imaging and great clarity in some ways, but it was stripped of ambiance and decay, the venue was missing and all recordings sounded like they were in that living room rather than at the venue the music was recorded at, or missing the ambient cues added by the recording engineer in the case of a studio album.
2. Then we have the "black background" as a result of a low noise floor that ENHANCES the sense of space, ambiance and decay, which allows for a "you are there" presentation.
Add in the myriad of different types of noise that all have different effects and we have a lack of both experience and language required to clearly communicate these concepts, made more difficult by not being able to communicate in person.
Clearly, we all want to avoid #1 and achieve #2.
Ok, back to basics...
When I listen to my brother-in law play his Steinway in his living room, It obviously makes no sense for me to describe the sound as having a "black background" or any of these other terms.
Now let's say I recorded him and listened to the recording on different systems. I think we could probably agree that an ideal system would offer good tonal balance, clarity, resolution, dynamics, presence with a spatial presentation close to what could be heard at the recording position.
So there you go. Was it so difficult?
In #37 I wrote:
I prefer to call it "calm background" since this indicates that there is a lack of [system] noise.
A calm background also allows for a sense of ambience, whereas a "black" background does not.
My suggestion is to banish the term "black background". People can not seem to agree on what it means. As I wrote above, I avoid the term "noise", so I will use ambiance instead, never "ambient noise". Ambiance is a characteristic of a performance in a specific space. It is what we experience/hear before, between, and after the notes. I want that captured on the recording and then reproduced by my system in my room.
System noise I do understand. There are many causes, but that is for another thread. Here we are discussing the terribly confusing term "black background".
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