"Black Backgrounds" in Music Reproduction?

[PeterA]

Ambiance is the sense of energy that permeates a space before, during, and after a performance. We experience this ambiance when attending a live performance. It is part of the experience and if this information is captured on the recording, I want to hear it presented to me by my system.

Black background is a vague and confusing term that somehow became a popular audiophile attribute and something worth pursuing. It’s a weird term like so many other terms in the audiophile glossary. When Fremer and others use it, I lose interest and respect. In my opinion, the language we use to describe things we experience from our audio systems should be firmly based on what we experience when listening to music, and they should be easily understood and not need elaborate, explanations and definitions. I don’t hear a black background when I go to listen to live music. The term has no meaning to me.

 

[DaveC]

This is why the discussion is so complicated. the fact that we can prefer equipment over others that have better "measurements" (less noise), does not mean that "less noise" is not desirable, it may simply mean that the measurements could be incomplete.

Ambiance is the sense of energy that permeates a space before, during, and after a performance. We experience this ambiance when attending a live performance. It is part of the experience and if this information is captured on the recording, I want to hear it presented to me by my system.

Black background is a vague and confusing term that somehow became a popular audiophile attribute and something worth pursuing. It’s a weird term like so many other terms in the audiophile glossary. When Fremer and others use it, I lose interest and respect. In my opinion, the language we use to describe things we experience from our audio systems should be firmly based on what we experience when listening to music, and they should be easily understood and not need elaborate, explanations and definitions. I don’t hear a black background when I go to listen to live music. The term has no meaning to me.

Yup, noise is often a subjective preference. A friend of mine is an electronica artist and he adds noise, he says it sounds more natural. He's talking about adding ambiance. Other kinds of noise can have spatial effects, for example periodization noise in MQA format pushes the images forward, which some like. Noise can accentuate leading edges, which can either sound exciting or fatiguing, noise in general usually has a stimulating effect on the nervous system. Less noise is less stimulating and less fatiguing. Even order harmonic distortion and "warmth" smooths out noise and reduces fatigue, but also reduces resolution.

Like many aspects of audio we don't have a firm grasp on the subject, so it's difficult to discuss as terminology isn't set, or is not widely known and understood. How many are familiar with periodization, dithering and noise shaping and can recognize the effect? Triboelectric noise? Diode noise and noise from amplification devices? EMI/RFI? Noise created by material impurities or alloys? I'm not claiming I can recognize every form of noise, but there are a lot of potential sources of noise and corresponding sonic effects that may or may not be preferrable.

So the thought that all of us are on the same page on the question: "What is a Black Background" is very unlikely in all but the most general way.

 

[the sound of Tao]

If in a replay of music there is a black background present (ie super low levels of ambient sound) that was genuinely reflective of the music performance and conveyed accurately in both the recording and replay that’s a good thing.

However if a black background is imposed by the recording or by the replay of the system that is (from my perspective) not a good thing.

When a system imposes a black background then it serves as a colouration that robs characteristics that can serve to characterise and denote the experience of a performance.

It can I guess also be kind of a surreal artefact like a hyper real void that some people could get excited by. The same way that adding black to a painting or a picture tends to amplify and enrich the other colours.

Though I’d have thought that its not often that acoustic instruments in live spaces have (naturally) virtually zero ambient information and balancing that perspective in a recording has always been important in terms of mic placement and mixing levels… it’s part of the art of recording that can contribute to an experience feeling more intense or involving or natural element of a live music recording.

I’d usually consider it disconcerting if a highlighted black background was a constant characteristic of a system if I played a lot of acoustic instrument based music.

Synthetic electronic music is a different kettle of fish. Much more it is potentially constructed and ambience can be a built feature or a very dry recording sound can be created so ambient noise may be dependent on how it is conceived to then be performed and recorded.

 

[hopkins]

Ambiance is the sense of energy that permeates a space before, during, and after a performance. We experience this ambiance when attending a live performance. It is part of the experience and if this information is captured on the recording, I want to hear it presented to me by my system.

How would you describe a system that does not let you hear information captured in the recording (as opposes to one that does)? Not "natural" sounding?

 

[microstrip]

Hmmm.

I think of ambient noise as the stuff I mentioned, like shuffling around in the seats and coughing and turning music pages.

I think of ambient space as a sense of the physical dimensions of the performance venue, and the sonic effect (reverberation time) of those dimensions.

In fact, you can't feel the ambient space as a sense of the physical dimensions of the performance venue unless you have some kind of sound!
And at start of performance, when musicians are not playing or when playing very low, the stuff you refer are excellent to create in us the sensation of the space of a music hall.

 

[microstrip]

(...) But if low noise were a priority for me, I would have solid-state electronics instead of tube electronics (...)

Some tube designs have very low noise and not all SS is noise-free.
The Nagra HD HV preamplifier we have been debating has tubes and has lower noise than any SS preamplifier.

, and I would prioritize digital over vinyl,

Here you get a point ...

and I would use balanced cables.

You can have the same results with balanced or single-ended cables, single-ended cables simply need more care and expertise in system layout and grounding.

 

[Holmz]

What is the difference between black background and low noise floor?

Is black background what you get when you have a low noise floor?

I think one sort of needs the system not to hiss like a basket full of vipers as a start.

Having low distortion is a help IME.

I suspect that high IMD may be what is filling the space with extra “stuff”.
It is probably not solely harmonic distortion… but usually the THD and IMD can run together to an extent.
Or when one is really bad, then so might be the other one.
(SETs maybe an exception, but I dunno)

 

[PYP]

Ambiance is the sense of energy that permeates a space before, during, and after a performance. We experience this ambiance when attending a live performance. It is part of the experience and if this information is captured on the recording, I want to hear it presented to me by my system.

Black background is a vague and confusing term that somehow became a popular audiophile attribute and something worth pursuing. It’s a weird term like so many other terms in the audiophile glossary. When Fremer and others use it, I lose interest and respect. In my opinion, the language we use to describe things we experience from our audio systems should be firmly based on what we experience when listening to music, and they should be easily understood and not need elaborate, explanations and definitions. I don’t hear a black background when I go to listen to live music. The term has no meaning to me.

I admit I don't get the black background description even though I think I know what it means. Yet, recently, after reducing noise in my system further, I was listening to a song that had a very short period of near silence. I thought my system had shut down. For me, being able to hear the silent passages simulates live music although I can't remember a venue with a background noise level so low that one heard absolute silence. I expect that can only happen in a very quiet studio setting. I don't think of silence as blackness, I suppose. For me, that visual image doesn't map to the auditory sensation.

 

[PeterA]

Yup, noise is often a subjective preference. A friend of mine is an electronica artist and he adds noise, he says it sounds more natural. He's talking about adding ambiance. Other kinds of noise can have spatial effects, for example periodization noise in MQA format pushes the images forward, which some like. Noise can accentuate leading edges, which can either sound exciting or fatiguing, noise in general usually has a stimulating effect on the nervous system. Less noise is less stimulating and less fatiguing. Even order harmonic distortion and "warmth" smooths out noise and reduces fatigue, but also reduces resolution.

Like many aspects of audio we don't have a firm grasp on the subject, so it's difficult to discuss as terminology isn't set, or is not widely known and understood. How many are familiar with periodization, dithering and noise shaping and can recognize the effect? Triboelectric noise? Diode noise and noise from amplification devices? EMI/RFI? Noise created by material impurities or alloys? I'm not claiming I can recognize every form of noise, but there are a lot of potential sources of noise and corresponding sonic effects that may or may not be preferrable.

So the thought that all of us are on the same page on the question: "What is a Black Background" is very unlikely in all but the most general way.

So are you saying a black background is the absence of noise? I think of ambiance as the energy one hears in a concert hall or jazz club that defines the character of the space. It is not noise. It is a positive attribute captured on some recordings and presented by good systems. It contributes to the realism of a presentation and helps it to sound natural. The system must have some level of resolution to present the ambulance of a venue. I think of ambiance as the opposite of a black background.

 

[PeterA]

I’d usually consider it disconcerting if a highlighted black background was a constant characteristic of a system if I played a lot of acoustic instrument based music.

Yes, I think of it as a characteristic of the system or a specific component or wires. It can also be caused by the energy robbing ability of too many audiophile acoustic treatments in a room. The absence of ambience tends to enhance other aspects of the presentation and I find it artificial sounding. This enhancement, however, can be very exciting.

 

[PeterA]

How would you describe a system that does not let you hear information captured in the recording (as opposes to one that does)? Not "natural" sounding?

I would describe such a system as less resolving. It does not present all the information on the recording. But presenting the information is not enough. The presentation has to be natural.

 

[hopkins]

It does not present all the information on the recording.

That's what "black background" means (at least to me): a sense that all the information is being presented.

 

[tima]

For audiophiles who value the sonic attribute of "black backgrounds" what does this term mean to you?

How do you seek to achieve the sonic objective of black backgrounds?

When I go to Walt Disney Concert Hall I do not hear black backgrounds. I hear a fairly high level of ambient noise, including attendees shuffling around in their chairs, coughing, whispering, sniffling, musicians turning pages, etc.

Out of my list of possible objectives of high-end audio I personally seek to "recreate the sound of an original musical event" or to "create a sound that seems live." Neither of these objectives prioritizes black backgrounds, because I do not hear black backgrounds at Walt Disney Concert Hall.

What do you think about the audiophile attribute objective of black backgrounds?

Do you care about black backgrounds?

If you care about black backgrounds, how do you achieve them?

Black as night
Black as coal
I wanna see the sun
Blotted out from the sky

wow - another horse not too dead to beat. There are so many threads covering this topic. It was a particularly rich one during the 2022-2023 period. So devoted to dredging "eyeballs for advertisers" is Ron that we take it up again. But there's been a sufficient influx of new participants since then that we'll whack it some more.

In case you're interested, here's a few of the more entertaining better written threads....

The Language of Reproduction and the language of Music

SPACE: THE FINAL FRONTIER
*** Karen's opening post here is really good and should be required reading. Note her comments on "Hi fi sound" ***

Natural Sound

Blackness / Black Background

 

[hopkins]

Black as night
Black as coal
I wanna see the sun
Blotted out from the sky

wow - another horse not too dead to beat. There are so many threads covering this topic. It was a particularly rich one during the 2022-2023 period. So devoted to dredging "eyeballs for advertisers" is Ron that we take it up again. But there's been a sufficient influx of new participants since then that we'll whack it some more.

In case you're interested, here's a few of the more entertaining better written threads....

The Language of Reproduction and the language of Music

SPACE: THE FINAL FRONTIER
*** Karen's opening post here is really good and should be required reading. Note her comments on "Hi fi sound" ***

Natural Sound

Blackness / Black Background

Quoting Karen Sumner's marketing spiel is not going to help clarify things in any ways. It is unfortunate that the term "black background" is taken so literally, as she does in one of your links, and others have done in this thread:

"This is a very interesting example of an audiophile term, "inky black background", that I find particularly interesting. I have never heard an "inky black background" except when listening to studio produced electronic music. Well recorded acoustic music on a well balanced system has the ability to reveal all the low level harmonic information and how it reflects on the venue's boundaries. There is no inky black background. There is a sense of sitting in the very space where the performance occurred, and "inky black" is not the word to describe that experience."

It's not rocket science... We are all talking about the same thing, but we like to think that somehow we have something special going on. Keeping things simple is obviously not something that audiophiles know how to do best.

 

[tima]

Quoting Karen Sumner's marketing spiel is not going to help clarify things in any ways. It is unfortunate that the term "black background" is taken so literally, as she does in one of your links, and others have done in this thread:

Oh, you mean that Karen Sumner post receiving 26 likes? You call that "marketing spiel"? Heh.

If you think it is unfortunate that the phrase 'black backround' is taken literally, what is the case for taking it figuratively? "...we don't really mean black background, what we really mean is ..."

The "inky black background" phrase is from at least one MF review.

The issue to me is less about the words chosen than the value some attach to them as desirable characteristics.

 

[hopkins]

Oh, you mean that Karen Sumner post receiving 26 likes? You call that "marketing spiel"? Heh.

I can't help rolling my eyes when I read things like this:

"Sometimes the hi fi use of the terms reflect a misguided aesthetic where much of the vital low-level music information such as timbral differences between instruments, harmonics, and harmonic reflections, and subtle dynamic nuances is stripped away, the very qualities music lovers want to hear."

She is just "playing music to the ears" of the many here who unfortunately have an elitist view of "high end audio".

Here is a prime example:

Is it Possible to Properly Evaluate a Product if one Doesn't Like how it Sounds? Are Experts just Preaching Their Tastes?

I agree with Ted here. This hobby seems more contentious than the average hobby. As one example I've read on-line off-roading forums where the registrants have in their signatures long list of specialty parts they've added to their SUVs -- like we have for audio components. They have strong...

www.whatsbestforum.com

"In this hobby, there are people who understand sound and music and those who do not"

The truth is much simpler: no system does everything well. Bragging about how many live acoustic events one attends each year is not going to change that.

 

[Al M.]

I admit I don't get the black background description even though I think I know what it means. Yet, recently, after reducing noise in my system further, I was listening to a song that had a very short period of near silence. I thought my system had shut down. For me, being able to hear the silent passages simulates live music although I can't remember a venue with a background noise level so low that one heard absolute silence. I expect that can only happen in a very quiet studio setting. I don't think of silence as blackness, I suppose. For me, that visual image doesn't map to the auditory sensation.

Same here, the term "black background" is alien to my perception. I prefer to call it "calm background" since this indicates that there is a lack of noise.

A calm background also allows for a sense of ambience, whereas a "black" background does not.

 

[Al M.]

It's not rocket science... We are all talking about the same thing, but we like to think that somehow we have something special going on. Keeping things simple is obviously not something that audiophiles know how to do best.

Right, and "black background" is not a simple term. It obviously can and does lead to confusion, and thus complication. You need to spend more time explaining the unfortunate term than actually using it.

The very fact that the OP needed to ask the question what it actually means, a very legitimate question indeed, speaks volumes.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Yes, I think of it as a characteristic of the system or a specific component or wires. It can also be caused by the energy robbing ability of too many audiophile acoustic treatments in a room. The absence of ambience tends to enhance other aspects of the presentation and I find it artificial sounding. This enhancement, however, can be very exciting.

That’s one of the issues of evaluating things based upon any of the litany of individual fragmentary hifi characteristics. In the end none of these partial criteria are sufficient if judged just of themselves and in isolation.

So perhaps something like a lower noise floor is better only if everything else remains equal or improves. But sometimes to achieve a lower noise floor you may end up with something that could be more artificial in the end. A lower noise floor could be achieved by adding filters and conditioning and if overdone potentially can just result in a less dynamic, less life like sound… sure a nice lower system noise floor but it doesn’t necessarily ultimately make for a better or more authentic sound.

Summative holistic evaluations should be done in tandem with any partial criteria. Whole evaluation such as does something also then sound more authentic and more real or less artificial and do the sum qualities of experience then connect me to the music better.

Fragmentary characteristics need to be evaluated in conjunction with whole and summative determinations about increased realism and music engagement and authenticity and connection.

 

[treitz3]

All due respect, Peter. That simply hogwash. These are terms that average users use to describe what they are hearing. Leading edge, visceral impact, phantom image.....how else are you going to describe them? There has to be some kind of common language.

[EDIT] The post I was responding to was deleted.

Tom