Cable Elevators

[the sound of Tao]

Fair enough, Tao. Well, sort of.

Without trying to sound combative or defensive, just because you say I owe anybody here a rigorous and open disclosure doesn’t make it so. The only thing I owe anybody anywhere is that I speak truthfully. I’m also under no obligation to share everything I think I know about vibrations. I've spent 13 years part time performing R&D and well over $100k focusing on electrical and especially vibrational energy. It’s my prerogative and mine alone if I choose to give away the farm, so-to-speak.

That said, and at the risk of having the hounds of hell come down on me, I’ll give you the somewhat "short" version of my perspective.

1. As you know, some concepts and beliefs were solidified in stone decades or even centuries ago. Vibration "isolation" being one of them. As you can probably see from some of the interactions, offering an alternate view of something so basic as vibration control, is probably not a whole lot different than trying to convince someone they've been wearing their underwear backwards their entire life. I try to be polite but again, we're talking supposedly “scientific fact" where even physicists spend their entire lives trying to defy basic laws of physics. IOW, things are bound to get heated real quick but I do my best to maintain a reasonable demeanor. But I will not roll over and play dead as I suspect many "experts" would prefer.

Moreover, there are plenty of well-respected industry experts who over time start to believe all the press clippings about their talents. After a while they (and their followers) start to think they are experts in any facet of audio they delve into. Some will go so far as to say, if they can’t figure it out, nobody can. And all too often we act like groupies clinging to their every word and dropping their names every chance we get. When in reality, they are playing very much in the same small sandbox as everybody else and they have no more answers to the serious problems plaguing high-end audio than anybody else.

2. My education is computer science and my background is Oracle database administration and Unix system administration. Oh, I can also now spell E-x-c-e-l. From that, it should be evident that I've no science background whatsoever, I'm not even science-minded, nor an engineer. I'm barely an armchair designer but if I have any strengths, perhaps I’m not confined to the borders of conventional science and I’m a bit of a what if? kinda’ guy. So where others can toss out "scientific facts" (that may or may not be true) rather quickly, I'm left only to rely on my experiences and hopefully logic and common sense. Of course to the science-minded types, I’m perceived as falling short of any mark of their choosing.

3. Aside from a performance-oriented company briefly mentoring me after stumbling across my first design on the web 13 years ago, I'm pretty much autodidactic. However, where that company went maybe 2 blocks down a given methodological path, which is about 2 blocks further than most, I went about 2 miles down that same path and in the past few years I went maybe another 2 miles further down that same path and frankly, what I've discovered over the years about the behaviors and similarities between electricity and especially vibrations (2 very basic energies) and especially their performance potentials continues to astonish me.

Without giving away the farm, I’ll give you just two small examples of more recent performance improvements.

a. For 14 years, various versions of my fabulous Foundation Research line conditioners (LC’s) sat on the carpet behind my humble but well-thought-out playback system. After wondering for the longest time, last fall I decided to see if these little passive and dedicated LC’s might be receptive to my extreme methods of vibration control and out of spare parts I contrived a little makeshift something. Over a period of time, I received no less than roughly 32 distinct audible improvements.

b. Last December I hosted a controversial event for 12 audiophiles with already a host of distinct audible improvements under my humble system’s belt. The event was a success, but since that time I estimate that my system experienced roughly 35 – 40 more distinct audible improvements with the latest occurring 4 days ago. And I haven’t touched a bloomin’ thing on my system since last October simply because the mechanical settling in never seems to stop when methods are taken to the extreme.

Contrast that 35 - 40 with maybe 50 - 150 distinct audible improvements the average enthusiast might receive their entire lifetime through buying and selling and various burn-ins and minor tweaks. And I consider those improvements relatively minor compared to other areas experiencing significantly more improvements. To try to qualify, I would consider each distinct audible improvement to roughly equate to one reasonably minor component upgrade you or I might experience.

4. At some level of competency, components, aside from build quality, are of little consequence to me when compared to the benefits of proper AC mgmt and especially proper vibration mgmt. Sure upgrades can most always improve performance a bit, but like a well-engineered Redbook recording vs a well-engineered high-rez recording, there’s nothing life changing by any means. My components are listed in my profile for whatever that's worth. And no I wouldn’t waste my time with an am/fm clock radio.

5. A portion of my product can be seen in my avatar.

To keep from getting too lengthy, I'll close with a few final thoughts.

1. Of the discoveries I've made regarding proper AC mgmt and especially proper vibration mgmt (translating into unimaginable performance levels), the single most important discovery I made was that extreme results can only occur from extreme efforts, never by token or half-assed efforts.

2. One such discovery that may be of interest has to do with certain behavioral similarities between electrical and mechanical energy. In some respects their behavior is so similar that I'm now convinced to a very good degree there is no such process known as electrical "burn-in". Rather I postulate a “burn-in” process must be a variation of a mechanical settling in process. I wouldn't quite stake my life on it just yet, but I might somebody else's.

3. There is but one true method of vibration control and that’s resonant energy transfer. Anything else and especially “isolation” is simply a grossly inferior version of the one true method.

4. When properly dealing with and within the basic laws of nature, like vibrations, the potential improvements are massive, they are many, they are across the entire spectrum, and they are without any negatives whatsoever. So it should be when dealing with laws of nature and staying within those confines rather than try to change them, as if anybody could improve on natural law.

5. As with perhaps any other performance-oriented industry, it's the foundation that determines a playback system's ultimate performance potential.

I may not be giving you much to hang your hat on here, but that's also my intention, especially since you essentially demanded I fully disclose what I think I know. But for what it's worth, roughly 65% of my entire system costs are dedicated solely to proper AC mgmt (proper line conditioning is but one part) and proper vibration mgmt. How's that for two categories industry "experts" still deem to be "accessories"?

BTW, I can and hope to be given the opportunity to prove Meridian's Bob Stuart is full of hot air when it comes to his and others outlandish performance claims of his soon to be released MQA format. And no I've never listened to an MQA formatted recording. Nor should I have to since MQA like other high-rez formats does Zero to reduce the universal distortions induced at our sensitive components that severely cripple their precision and accuracy via inferior AC mgmt and inferior vibration mgmt.

Thanks but yes you are also right, not much of anything specific at all to hang my hat as far as outlining the gear used and the range of isolation gear you have tried.

Its fine that you put these probing questions to industry experts and I'm sure you expect that they then engage seriously with you and respond to your questioning truthfully rather than just being evasive and so yes, it would have been nice if you had simply answered what is a fairly straight forward question about giving a simple outline of the gear that you had used to evaluate isolation in terms of audio system and any specifics on your findings on the nature of the sonic differences you found in the types gear you tried.

More info on your experience with a variety of isolation and resonance control in significant areas of system infrastructure such as using high performance resonance control under speakers, power conditioners, amps and source equipment would give some range to your comments in this thread.

So I take it the green thing in your avatar is your single clue for what ever audio gear that you have used in your isolation experiments and beyond that clue nothing at all specific that might help anyone reading your posts to clarify your experience or to give some substance or to help qualify and validate some of your theories. I only asked for some simple clarity because I genuinely want to understand what you mean. I find that much is said but not so much is clearly understood. That's fine. Btw I've ruled out Shreks appendage so now have no clue on the green pointy thingy.

Look I find most of the people you have criticised in quite a few posts have all largely contributed to the hobby in much more substantial and obvious ways. I've heard your truth but I trust more in theirs because they do give evidence and don't just throw crazy disconnected and at times incoherent and incomprehensible analogies. They put their names to things and they have contributed to audio design and also our experiences and understanding for some considerable time.

Its great that you are a solid and vocal champion of your truth but clearly it's not going to be everyone's truth. Great long sentences but convoluted and clearly a bit short on transparency. Its cool but I think there might be some real value in parts of what you write but I'm unlikely to be taking it at all seriously if you won't even tell us the basic truths before insisting we believe in your higher truths.

 

[sbo6]

WRT speaker cable vibrations, I would think any benefit from cable elevators would be minimal compared to the much larger deleterious effects of bass frequencies interacting with internal speaker wiring. You could probably also add xover components and wiring to this statement for many (most?) speakers.

 

[the sound of Tao]

sbo, agreed, I'd love to add specific experience with isolation on internal crossovers and wiring but haven't tried it yet tho have modded the crossover of the maggie 20.7 to improve capacitor performance to lower noise floor. Certainly Kaiser Kawero and Evolution acoustics offer outboard crossovers to improve performance on their gear, also plenty of examples where people have modified and gone external crossover to isolate it from the cabinet including Tannoy Westminsters and it was a long standing Maggie tradition prior to the .7 series.

Also like you I found cable lifters are at the very subtle level of mod shifts spectrum and are in line with the kinds of shifts you get when the cable dialectic eventually settles down after a day or two after significant moving of cables around. It is more in the line of benefit from general ordered system setup and good cable dressing (tho I haven't yet tried Caelin's latest version of the Shunyata DF). Nice useful mod but not in the league of other isolation control.

On the second system I run at the moment with some lovely Harbeth stand mounts where resolution isn't just quite as critical as with the 20.7s (tho lots of good music there) I may even have a go at something inspired by Stehno's DIY version and see how it goes.

 

[ddk]

sbo, agreed, I'd love to add specific experience with isolation on internal crossovers and wiring but haven't tried it yet tho have modded the crossover of the maggie 20.7 to improve capacitor performance to lower noise floor. Certainly Kaiser Kawero and Evolution acoustics offer outboard crossovers to improve performance on their gear, also plenty of examples where people have modified and gone external crossover to isolate it from the cabinet including Tannoy Westminsters and it was a long standing Maggie tradition prior to the .7 series.

Often external xover doesn't have anything to do with isolation of any kind but a larger internal cavity in the speaker cabinet for better bass response. Problem with the external xover is the additional lengths of wire and extra connectors needed.
david

 

[the sound of Tao]

David, Absolutely +1 on the potential issue of a downside of going off board with a speaker Xover, more complex approaches are often mixed blessings for sure.

Kaiser Kawero's principal reason according to them is to minimize vibration for the capacitors by putting their high performance Dueland based crossover as stand alone in tankwood so to isolate the components from high pressure air waves and speaker cabinet vibration. These guys are at the edge of resolution in box based speakers doing everything in panzerholz and using Raal top spec ribbons so at that end of the design they are probably hearing plenty that most of us are unlikely to.

http://www.kaiser-acoustics.com/en/speakers/classic/classic.html

From memory it's often fairly regularly discussed in terms of minimizing capacitor inductance but I've got insufficient science in my DNA to comprehend that discussion much at all.

I'm sure there's also many other different versions of designer logic for going external passive crossover as a strategy as well.

A good mate has a Tune Anima full range horn setup which I get to enjoy often (tho your bionors are clearly running up beyond the peak in the wondrous horn porn stakes) but the joy with the magical large Greek horns is that those last bits of resolution just aren't needed for the complete immersion and connection within that kind of musical experience.

Whereas when we come to here with the ribbons and panels in play every last bit matters. I have a much more real world setup of smaller horns at home just at the moment, the Tune Primes and they aren't as demanding in setup as even the Harbeth SLH5+ which are probably somewhere in the middle in terms of needs for resolution control.

But both are delivering spades of music without too much additional resonance control in play and certainly no cable elevators needed to lift up the joy at all.

 

[ddk]

David, Absolutely +1 on the potential issue of a downside of going off board with a speaker Xover, more complex approaches are often mixed blessings for sure.

Kaiser Kawero's principal reason according to them is to minimize vibration for the capacitors by putting their high performance Dueland based crossover as stand alone in tankwood so to isolate the components from high pressure air waves and speaker cabinet vibration. These guys are at the edge of resolution in box based speakers doing everything in panzerholz and using Raal top spec ribbons so at that end of the design they are probably hearing plenty that most of us are unlikely to.

http://www.kaiser-acoustics.com/en/speakers/classic/classic.html

From memory it's often fairly regularly discussed in terms of minimizing capacitor inductance but I've got insufficient science in my DNA to comprehend that discussion much at all.

I'm sure there's also many other different versions of designer logic for going external passive crossover as a strategy as well.

A good mate has a Tune Anima full range horn setup which I get to enjoy often (tho your bionors are clearly running up beyond the peak in the wondrous horn porn stakes) but the joy with the magical large Greek horns is that those last bits of resolution just aren't needed for the complete immersion and connection within that kind of musical experience.

Whereas when we come to here with the ribbons and panels in play every last bit matters. I have a much more real world setup of smaller horns at home just at the moment, the Tune Primes and they aren't as demanding in setup as even the Harbeth SLH5+ which are probably somewhere in the middle in terms of needs for resolution control.

But both are delivering spades of music without too much additional resonance control in play and certainly no cable elevators needed to lift the joy at all.

As they say, everything depends on everything else, some designers even pot external crossovers while other excellent ones bother very little with any kind of real isolation, like you I'm not a speaker designer, I buy what I like and that's that.
david

 

[the sound of Tao]

I'm also likely to turn off after a half a dozen pars till someone gets around to mentioning something about music... Mahler, Bruno Walter, Herbie Hancock even London Grammar... anything is better than too much THD which is invariably bad for my ADHD lol.

 

[TBG]

I'm also likely to turn off after a half a dozen pars till someone gets around to mentioning something about music... Mahler, Bruno Walter, Herbie Hancock even London Grammar... anything is better than too much THD which is invariably bad for my ADHD lol.

I am late to this thread but two things you said long ago:

"2. One such discovery that may be of interest has to do with certain behavioral similarities between electrical and mechanical energy. In some respects their behavior is so similar that I'm now convinced to a very good degree there is no such process known as electrical "burn-in". Rather I postulate a “burn-in” process must be a variation of a mechanical settling in process. I wouldn't quite stake my life on it just yet, but I might somebody else's.

3. There is but one true method of vibration control and that’s resonant energy transfer. Anything else and especially “isolation” is simply a grossly inferior version of the one true method.

are so similar to what Star Sound Technologies is founded on, that I thought you might want to look them and their products up.

Personally, I find that virtually everything matters-vibrations, electromagnetic waves, static electricity, ac filtering, ground loops and grounding in general, and, of course RFI and EMI from outside the audio system.

There are four companies that make what I think matters. They are not listed in any order: Star Sound Technologies is the first. They basically derive from their Audio Points, which they supposedly say they have sold over 300,000! But their Rhythm rack and new 2.5AP-1AINTs and APCD4-Invert coupling cups in combination with their rack bespeak the benefits of mechanical grounding;

Second is High Fidelity Cables whose use of magnets to remove electromagnetic waves in both ac power to components and signal cables thereafter, are expensive but unbeatable. I personally think their power cords and devices for filtering the AC must be used. There are basically six lines of cables that trace the development of these designs. They run from pretty expensive to unbelievably expensive but nevertheless clearly better.

Third is Tripoint Audio's Troy Signature with Thor SE grounding cables. Basically this is a star grounding technology with filtering that just removes ground loops that destroy the pace of the music. I cannot afford the premier version of their products but I suspect they are even better. These products have absolutely nothing to do with the Entreq devices.

The fourth company is North American H-Cat Designs and their X-10 designs, principally the amp. I know they are unavailable outside the USA right now, but I have both. Their amp is revolutionary in my opinion. There is no phase error introduced in its designs as all signal goes through amplification at the same speed for all frequencies. What you hear is unheard of resolution across the sound stage for even symphonic orchestras, big bands, outdoor concerts, etc. One can hear where the first violins are relative to the second violins, etc. I have owned about 30 different amps in 48 years as an audiophile and never heard anything approaching this amp.

 

[stehno]

I am late to this thread but two things you said long ago:

"2. One such discovery that may be of interest has to do with certain behavioral similarities between electrical and mechanical energy. In some respects their behavior is so similar that I'm now convinced to a very good degree there is no such process known as electrical "burn-in". Rather I postulate a “burn-in” process must be a variation of a mechanical settling in process. I wouldn't quite stake my life on it just yet, but I might somebody else's.

3. There is but one true method of vibration control and that’s resonant energy transfer. Anything else and especially “isolation” is simply a grossly inferior version of the one true method.

are so similar to what Star Sound Technologies is founded on, that I thought you might want to look them and their products up.

Personally, I find that virtually everything matters-vibrations, electromagnetic waves, static electricity, ac filtering, ground loops and grounding in general, and, of course RFI and EMI from outside the audio system.

Well, that was me you are quoting in #2 and #3 above. Yes, I'm familiar with Star Sound Technologies as they kinda' mentored me back in 2003 era. Star Sound should have no such knowledge of #2 above but most likely would be in whole agreement with #3.

 

[es347]

To set the record straight, I have never heard a difference in these products. I would use them only because my anal retentive factor is off the charts. In fact, I am a BlueJeans Cable guy.

But what I found fascinating is this quote by Jonathan Valin, not that he liked them (not a surprise) but rather that he considered himself a "skeptic", he who happens to be the President of the Speaker of the Nanosecond Club: "The damn things do lower noise, increase dynamics, remove haze, and open up the top octaves. Once you listen to their effects, even a skeptic like me has to admit that it is hard to take them back out of the system. Music sounds more like music with the Cable Elevators in place. I recommend them strongly, especially given their price!"

- Jonathan Valin, The Absolute Sound, Editor's Choice Award Winners

..JV probably decided he needed elevators and knew full well that the mfr would either pony up a set or give them on the infamous long term loan in exchange for a positive comment...typical Valin..

 

[the sound of Tao]

I am late to this thread but two things you said long ago:

"2. One such discovery that may be of interest has to do with certain behavioral similarities between electrical and mechanical energy. In some respects their behavior is so similar that I'm now convinced to a very good degree there is no such process known as electrical "burn-in". Rather I postulate a “burn-in” process must be a variation of a mechanical settling in process. I wouldn't quite stake my life on it just yet, but I might somebody else's.

3. There is but one true method of vibration control and that’s resonant energy transfer. Anything else and especially “isolation” is simply a grossly inferior version of the one true method.

are so similar to what Star Sound Technologies is founded on, that I thought you might want to look them and their products up.

Personally, I find that virtually everything matters-vibrations, electromagnetic waves, static electricity, ac filtering, ground loops and grounding in general, and, of course RFI and EMI from outside the audio system.

There are four companies that make what I think matters. They are not listed in any order: Star Sound Technologies is the first. They basically derive from their Audio Points, which they supposedly say they have sold over 300,000! But their Rhythm rack and new 2.5AP-1AINTs and APCD4-Invert coupling cups in combination with their rack bespeak the benefits of mechanical grounding;

Second is High Fidelity Cables whose use of magnets to remove electromagnetic waves in both ac power to components and signal cables thereafter, are expensive but unbeatable. I personally think their power cords and devices for filtering the AC must be used. There are basically six lines of cables that trace the development of these designs. They run from pretty expensive to unbelievably expensive but nevertheless clearly better.

Third is Tripoint Audio's Troy Signature with Thor SE grounding cables. Basically this is a star grounding technology with filtering that just removes ground loops that destroy the pace of the music. I cannot afford the premier version of their products but I suspect they are even better. These products have absolutely nothing to do with the Entreq devices.

The fourth company is North American H-Cat Designs and their X-10 designs, principally the amp. I know they are unavailable outside the USA right now, but I have both. Their amp is revolutionary in my opinion. There is no phase error introduced in its designs as all signal goes through amplification at the same speed for all frequencies. What you hear is unheard of resolution across the sound stage for even symphonic orchestras, big bands, outdoor concerts, etc. One can hear where the first violins are relative to the second violins, etc. I have owned about 30 different amps in 48 years as an audiophile and never heard anything approaching this amp.

TBG, the Tripoint Troy Signature would be something I'd love to audition. Everyone finds their own way in this journey and as long as we keep trying and evaluating in the light that everything ultimately is some sort of choice, some kind of compromise and that we need to define what gives any of this meaning for us. We all need to keep open minds and accept that perception varies and so no one method is likely to ever be best for all. That's what makes it such a rewarding journey, especially when the music comes through as clear and pure and full of meaning.

 

[stehno]

TBG, the Tripoint Troy Signature would be something I'd love to audition. Everyone finds their own way in this journey and as long as we keep trying and evaluating in the light that everything ultimately is some sort of choice, some kind of compromise and that we need to define what gives any of this meaning for us. We all need to keep open minds and accept that perception varies and so no one method is likely to ever be best for all. That's what makes it such a rewarding journey, especially when the music comes through as clear and pure and full of meaning.

Amazing. You said, "when the music comes through as clear and pure and full of meaning." Do you have any idea about the much raised noise floor your playback system is exhibiting at this very moment? Visually, that much raised noise floor should not be much different than this.


I'm almost positive the car is red.

 

[Bruce B]

Well if Grundman uses them, you know they are legit!!

 

[fas42]

Everyone finds their own way in this journey and as long as we keep trying and evaluating in the light that everything ultimately is some sort of choice, some kind of compromise and that we need to define what gives any of this meaning for us. We all need to keep open minds and accept that perception varies and so no one method is likely to ever be best for all. That's what makes it such a rewarding journey, especially when the music comes through as clear and pure and full of meaning.

Nicely put ... I agree that there can be no one 'right way' - what I have found intriguing over the years is that numerous approaches can be used to "clean up the system", which all contribute to making the sound you hear being the "sound" of the recording alone, rather than the "sound" of the playback system mixed with that of the recording ... a good example are some classic jukebox classics of the late 50's, but played on competent solid state digital: you can "smell" the hot valves of the recording gear adding their velvety patina to the texture ...

 

[the sound of Tao]

Amazing. You said, "when the music comes through as clear and pure and full of meaning." Do you have any idea about the much raised noise floor your playback system is exhibiting at this very moment? Visually, that much raised noise floor should not be much different than this.

View attachment 26302
I'm almost positive the car is red.

Cmon man, as much as you'd like to think you know just how exactly my system sounds or how low it's noise floor is from the comfort of your armchair on the other side of the planet I can only suggest that to make any comment on that is just pure crazy business.

Btw the noise floor on my setup is actually none too shabby after having spent plenty of focus and effort over the last few years in getting it all down. The weird analogy with the fuzzy car picture is well just fuzzy at best and actually more obscures understanding rather than clarifying anything. Don't need you to explain it as not really wanting to get any deeper in to this as it is unlikely to lead into anything valuable.

As can so often be the case in this hobby we just see things differently which is fine and happy to respect that. We can always leave off with the crazy intensity and small argument as it's all just supposed to be an enjoyable hobby in reality.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Nicely put ... I agree that there can be no one 'right way' - what I have found intriguing over the years is that numerous approaches can be used to "clean up the system", which all contribute to making the sound you hear being the "sound" of the recording alone, rather than the "sound" of the playback system mixed with that of the recording ... a good example are some classic jukebox classics of the late 50's, but played on competent solid state digital: you can "smell" the hot valves of the recording gear adding their velvety patina to the texture ...

I also love the smell of velvety patina of hot valves in the morning... great line thanks Frank

 

[stehno]

Cmon man, as much as you'd like to think you know just how exactly my system sounds or how low it's noise floor is from the comfort of your armchair on the other side of the planet I can only suggest that to make any comment on that is just pure crazy business.

Exactly is a pretty exacting word and hence I would never claim to know exactly how your system sounds or exactly how high your system's raised noise floor is. But since it's a universal matter that cannot be avoided or dodged, I can say with great confidence that it's pert near like most every other system. Which BTW happens to be quite high.

 

[cjf]

I use a home made version of cable elevator in my system for one reason and one reason only, to increase the air gap between wires that would otherwise be on top of each other. I would never claim these devices increase SQ but I do believe that keeping potentially noisy wires separated thru whatever means necessary can in theory result in a better sounding system. The elevators themselves are nothing more than a means to accomplish this.

 

[TBG]

..JV probably decided he needed elevators and knew full well that the mfr would either pony up a set or give them on the infamous long term loan in exchange for a positive comment...typical Valin..

I do agree in part with Valin. Both vibrations and static electric are enemies of cables. I have always found that porcelain with a glaze are clearly best for static electricity but the issue then is vibrations. I have many of my HFCables on Star Sound Tech. Rhythm shelves but some are not. I have had my speaker wire up on a tower with one 18Kva insulators raising them about 15 inchs up with a Rightway Audio isolator on top and a wooden wood elevator on top, but the massive HFC Pro speaker cables are too precarious for this.

I have tried wood but don't like their sound; same for metal with foam inserts.

 

[FrantzM]

Not much to say about the cable elevators.. My opinion was stated at the beginning of this thread.

For those who invoke vibrations, these are mostly airborne and there is no way a cable elevators will help in this area. If the listener is pleased with the results however debatable their existence could be, that is all that counts. I it a hobby after all.
As for static electricity...