Cable Elevators
- Thread starter mep
- Start date
OK, back to elevators.
I live on the 4th floor and was wondering if moving up to the 5th or 6th would make a difference and have a positive impact on the sound of my cables?
i've had 16 of the same ceramic cable elevators for over 10 years. i make no claims about sonic benefits.
a couple months ago i did purchase the Shunyata Dark Field v2 cable elevators for my cables. not cheap. again; i make no claims for what i hear. not saying i don't have an opinion......but i'm just not going there on this forum.
this whole subject falls into the catagory of things you do when you've done everything else possible. when your system is already tweaked. just 'in case' it might matter.
Sir , why the defensive posturing ... we would love to hear your opinion .... why deny the pack ,their pound of flesh
Sir , why the defensive posturing ... we would love to hear your opinion .... why deny the pack ,their pound of flesh
Never mind the pound of flesh. They will want that on top of the pound of measurements they will demand. Seriously, even if you don't believe that cable elevators can improve the sound of your system, you still can't go wrong with purchasing them and using them. They are worth the asking price for cable management alone. This is the first time I have been able to keep AC power cords from crossing over my speaker cables. I'm quite happy with them.
Sir , why the defensive posturing ... we would love to hear your opinion .... why deny the pack ,their pound of flesh
there is a line somewhere dividing products the benefit of which are worth discussing from those that are not worth discussing. in the most respectful listener's environment cable elevators degree of performance boost would be questioned.
and then there is WBF, which has more, much more, than it's share of skepticism and minimal respect for listening impressions to begin with.
honestly i've never really given any brain time or listening time to whether they help, or how much. it's more a matter of system housekeeping to me. the closest i could come to providing some fodder for the WBF 'mouth-breathers' might be that i think the Shunyata Dark Field v2 cable elevators lowered the noise floor and increased the vividness and energy very slightly.....everything was slightly more relaxed.
i hope that tickles your fancy and provides a bit of entertainment for you on a relaxed Sunday afternoon.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3066-Cable-Elevators
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?529-Cable-Lifters
Here are two more threads I have found about this subject. Just thought I'd add them to this thread for those who are interested in reading further.
Tom
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?529-Cable-Lifters
Here are two more threads I have found about this subject. Just thought I'd add them to this thread for those who are interested in reading further.
Tom
My impression is the opposite. AVS seems to have a much stronger "science" contingent; here on WBF, many more seem to shout down the objectivists. Probably just me, but this place has gotten a lot less friendly lately...
On topic: I have little opinion on cable elevators. Amazingly enough I have tried raising my speaker cables but have never noticed a difference in the sound. I am sure some will argue expectation bias works both ways, and they are correct. IME, day-to-day variations in myself outweigh most minor tweaks; that is, how I feel, how I listen, is one of the larger variables in my system.
I so agree with this Don it's not funny!
A system is supposed to sound the same from day to day, and it probably does. However, the user (a human being) has stresses, emotions, feelings of euphoria, pains and aches, etc. and they vary from day to day. How one feels is directly related to how he/she perceives his/her system to sound and how that sound is interpreted. These things have more of an effect than some subtle tweaks we may introduce.
Anyone who is listening for night and day changes with cable elevators is barking down the wrong bush. They don't make night and day changes in the sound of your system. Paying $59 for four of the "bass traps" I talked about on another thread and installing them in at the top and bottom of the corners of your wall behind your speakers will yield a much more apparent change in the sound of your system in terms of clarity/articulation. I'm seriously thinking about buying another 8 of them in order to go from floor to ceiling on both sides. They should be called corner traps and not bass traps, but they still bring very positive benefits to the sound of your room and thus your system.
Getting back to cable elevators, I do think they bring a positive change to the sound of your system. It's a lower-level positive change than the traps I spoke about above, but a positive improvement nonetheless. Although subtle, the sound is a smidge cleaner. We can argue whether it's true, and we can argue if it's caused by getting the speaker cables off the floor or away from the PCs, or both.
Getting back to cable elevators, I do think they bring a positive change to the sound of your system. It's a lower-level positive change than the traps I spoke about above, but a positive improvement nonetheless. Although subtle, the sound is a smidge cleaner. We can argue whether it's true, and we can argue if it's caused by getting the speaker cables off the floor or away from the PCs, or both.
It may be that some cables react to what they're laying upon. My cables lay upon a wood floor and don't seem to benefit from elevators. At an acquaintance's, living in a rental with nylon wall to wall carpeting, we found his system subjectively far more 'open' with the cables lifted via a 'teepees' crafted from chopsticks....
sorry, but to say AVS is not open to audiophile/listeners is the understatement of the year. so the WBF being more tolerant of listening impressions than AVS still falls far short of where i'd choose it to be. expessing listening opinions and then getting multiple requests for 'proof' by some sort of A/B (blind probably), or a request for measurments, or comments that it's some sort of bias, or maybe placebo or other fantasy is par for the course at WBF. sure, the tone is not as 'all-knowing' as AVS, but still there is little respect for the actual listening impressions.
just look at the thread headings here on the General Forum, then look at thread headings at Audiogon. the lean is totally different. WBF has AVS in it's dna even if it's toned down somewhat.
i can post at Audiogon for months or years before someone is going to go down these roads on my impressions. so your calibration of what is acceptable is based on the wrong extreme.
Mike
I hope you don't want this place to become an echo-chamber. People have voiced their subjective impressions on gears and you have asked them for proofs. To me that can be warranted by the way, Others may differ. I will no repeat my post in another thread you started but there is absolutely nothing wrong with someone asking for a little verification. If we agree to entertain the request we either confirm our impressions or infirm these. Good for everybody! Our ears and education can be quite good, they can be fooled.
So far this forum has some balance trending toward the subjective IOW Ears are the final arbiter .. Guess what? I lean toward this opinion: if it measures great and don't sound good to me, I won't take it and also if possible to verify, I am very much aware of the tricks the mind can play, yet, it must sound good to me. I have components that I love that don't measure that good: Magnepan Speakers (Heard the 1.7 like it, Heard the 3.7 Loooove it). Interestingly, I love some components that measure exceedingly well, e;g Magico Q3 (Enthralled by this speaker, if logistics weren't a serious issue, I would get them and that would be my speaker for the next 5 to 10 years with of course appropriate subwoofers, a pair of Seaton Submersive is on the top of the list, they also measure very well .
To be on topic, a perusing of the last two threads Ack so diligently posted above, will let you know my opinion about Cable elevators
I hope you don't want this place to become an echo-chamber. People have voiced their subjective impressions on gears and you have asked them for proofs. To me that can be warranted by the way, Others may differ. I will no repeat my post in another thread you started but there is absolutely nothing wrong with someone asking for a little verification. If we agree to entertain the request we either confirm our impressions or infirm these. Good for everybody! Our ears and education can be quite good, they can be fooled.
So far this forum has some balance trending toward the subjective IOW Ears are the final arbiter .. Guess what? I lean toward this opinion: if it measures great and don't sound good to me, I won't take it and also if possible to verify, I am very much aware of the tricks the mind can play, yet, it must sound good to me. I have components that I love that don't measure that good: Magnepan Speakers (Heard the 1.7 like it, Heard the 3.7 Loooove it). Interestingly, I love some components that measure exceedingly well, e;g Magico Q3 (Enthralled by this speaker, if logistics weren't a serious issue, I would get them and that would be my speaker for the next 5 to 10 years with of course appropriate subwoofers, a pair of Seaton Submersive is on the top of the list, they also measure very well
. To be on topic, a perusing of the last two threads Ack so diligently posted above, will let you know my opinion about Cable elevators
i have asked for 'evidence' that an event ever happened? i've not questioned the listening opinion but the event. if the event was real, the gear was real, i fully accept and appreciate the opinion. i think i've had reason to question events, and sometimes it's appropriate.
and i've never asked for measurements or blind testing.
i might want details about the system and gear they are referencing so i can understand. i'm always open about the circumstances of my listening opinions and expect the same in return......like any listener focused forum. if you read threads on Audiogon people want details about the system where the impressions were formed. that is the focus. not whether the opinion is legit. that is what i would prefer.
the context of 100% of my listening impressions are always out there for anyone to see.
it's the predictability and relentlessness of the requests for proof/verification/measurement that frustrate me. it's like a dark cloud over any discussion of any gear. it's oppressive.
So far this forum has some balance trending toward the subjective IOW Ears are the final arbiter .. Guess what? I lean toward this opinion: if it measures great and don't sound good to me, I won't take it and also if possible to verify, I am very much aware of the tricks the mind can play, yet, it must sound good to me. I have components that I love that don't measure that good: Magnepan Speakers (Heard the 1.7 like it, Heard the 3.7 Loooove it). Interestingly, I love some components that measure exceedingly well, e;g Magico Q3 (Enthralled by this speaker, if logistics weren't a serious issue, I would get them and that would be my speaker for the next 5 to 10 years with of course appropriate subwoofers, a pair of Seaton Submersive is on the top of the list, they also measure very well
and i don't care a whit about measuring.
To be on topic, a perusing of the last two threads Ack so diligently posted above, will let you know my opinion about Cable elevators
i posted my impressions on the topic.
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Mike
You actually do even if by proxy. Your room got to the results it has through measurements and listening tests. Too many times a caricature is made of measurements. There is a component in the Technology that is not entirely "scientific'. The parameters are either too numerous or unknown to go just by the numbers. In any technological endeavor, be it cars, airplanes or Information Technology, there has to be testing and it is accomplished with the real product meeting the real world. I did take this example and it was, predictably, made fun of: Toyotas do not drive or even sound like Nissan or whatever car you choose. The differences are due to the different path taken to make a car by different engineers, designers, people. This is the Human Touch , this set of things that we don't know exactly how to measure or not yet to relate entirely to measurements. Test pilots do just that in cars and airplanes. Some engineers given the same designs objectives, same material and engineers come up with better designs/products. We audiophiles have to listen, it is the final test and we do it with our ears helped by measurements if we are agreeable to that, it keeps us honest and provide a better determination. A carpenter can look at a piece of wood and know its dimensions, to ascertain when comes the time to fabricate, she/he uses a ruler .. A musician even with absolute pitch uses a fork to tune his or her instruments .. Just making sure, for us audiophiles it can be a good thing to do .. just to make sure .. So we ask and ask often
You actually do even if by proxy. Your room got to the results it has through measurements and listening tests. Too many times a caricature is made of measurements. There is a component in the Technology that is not entirely "scientific'. The parameters are either too numerous or unknown to go just by the numbers. In any technological endeavor, be it cars, airplanes or Information Technology, there has to be testing and it is accomplished with the real product meeting the real world. I did take this example and it was, predictably, made fun of: Toyotas do not drive or even sound like Nissan or whatever car you choose. The differences are due to the different path taken to make a car by different engineers, designers, people. This is the Human Touch , this set of things that we don't know exactly how to measure or not yet to relate entirely to measurements. Test pilots do just that in cars and airplanes. Some engineers given the same designs objectives, same material and engineers come up with better designs/products. We audiophiles have to listen, it is the final test and we do it with our ears helped by measurements if we are agreeable to that, it keeps us honest and provide a better determination. A carpenter can look at a piece of wood and know its dimensions, to ascertain when comes the time to fabricate, she/he uses a ruler .. A musician even with absolute pitch uses a fork to tune his or her instruments .. Just making sure, for us audiophiles it can be a good thing to do .. just to make sure .. So we ask and ask often
(...) So far this forum has some balance trending toward the subjective IOW Ears are the final arbiter .. Guess what? I lean toward this opinion: if it measures great and don't sound good to me, I won't take it and also if possible to verify, I am very much aware of the tricks the mind can play, yet, it must sound good to me. I have components that I love that don't measure that good: Magnepan Speakers (Heard the 1.7 like it, Heard the 3.7 Loooove it). Interestingly, I love some components that measure exceedingly well, e;g Magico Q3 (Enthralled by this speaker, if logistics weren't a serious issue, I would get them and that would be my speaker for the next 5 to 10 years with of course appropriate subwoofers, a pair of Seaton Submersive is on the top of the list, they also measure very well
To be on topic, a perusing of the last two threads Ack so diligently posted above, will let you know my opinion about Cable elevators
Frantz,
Happy to know your love disregards measurements
- I do not feel so guilty, I also love some gear that does not follow the +/- 0.1dB rule . Can I ask you how do you know that the Magico Q3s measure excellently well? All the measurements I have seen from Magico's until now have shown a voiced speaker, not a Toole masterpiece ... But I have not seen any valid ones from the Q3.
Hi
Never said i disregard measurements microstrip, for speakers I have some doubts but tend to go for smooth freq response. I am not about bump in the freq or euphony ...
As for measurements, the Q series tend to be flat like pancake on axis on these:
From ULTRAUDIO: Q3 CLICK HERE I don't know what you consider to be "valid" so ...
For the Q7 Ultra Audio : The Write-up Review by Jeff Fritz CLICK HERE:
And Finally From Stereophile CLICK HERE
That is as flat as I have seen from speakers ... If by that you mean voiced to be neutral on axis .. Well, I am with you, voiced away from neutral? Not my opinion, YMMV. The Q3 were extremely neutral to my ears. I would have preferred them to have the mid-bass heft of the old Dunleavy speakers (The Standard IMHO) but these days my philosophy about bass reproduction is that subwoofers are necessary, regardless of the bass capabilities of the mains.
Never said i disregard measurements microstrip, for speakers I have some doubts but tend to go for smooth freq response. I am not about bump in the freq or euphony ...
As for measurements, the Q series tend to be flat like pancake on axis on these:
From ULTRAUDIO: Q3 CLICK HERE I don't know what you consider to be "valid" so ...
For the Q7 Ultra Audio : The Write-up Review by Jeff Fritz CLICK HERE:
And Finally From Stereophile CLICK HERE
That is as flat as I have seen from speakers ... If by that you mean voiced to be neutral on axis .. Well, I am with you, voiced away from neutral? Not my opinion, YMMV. The Q3 were extremely neutral to my ears. I would have preferred them to have the mid-bass heft of the old Dunleavy speakers (The Standard IMHO) but these days my philosophy about bass reproduction is that subwoofers are necessary, regardless of the bass capabilities of the mains.
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