Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[Geoffkait]

The problems with CDs generally speaking are produced during playback in a home system. The major contributors, but by no means all, to the noise and distortion we hear as digititus are,

CD wobbling and fluttering during play,

Scattered laser light getting into the photo detector.

Very low frequency seismic type vibration on the system.

The clear polycarbonate layer of the CD is not 100% transparent.

The electric static charge that accumulates on the surfaces of the CD interfere with the transport operation.

 

[skinnyfla]

… I really don’t know whether to plunge into digital or just leave it at what it is and continuously improve vinyl… totally torn on this…

 

[PeterA]

… I really don’t know whether to plunge into digital or just leave it at what it is and continuously improve vinyl… totally torn on this…

Before buying a boat, the owner must ask himself exactly how he will use it. Once this is understood, the choice becomes much easier.

 

[skinnyfla]

Before buying a boat, the owner must ask himself exactly how he will use it. Once this is understood, the choice becomes much easier.

Hah! That‘s like saying I will be using the car 80% of the time… but the 20% I use the boat it should be best enjoyable;-)

 

[PeterA]

Hah! That‘s like saying I will be using the car 80% of the time… but the 20% I use the boat it should be best enjoyable;-)

It helps to know how you will be using your system before you decide what to buy.

 

[skinnyfla]

… well - taking all discussed thoughts into account to make digital sound close to vinyl - in your/peoples opinion, what will have the biggest impact on the sound, the server/storage, the ethernet switch, the streaming bridge, the DAC, the software, the clock/reclocker… just asking to see what will have the biggest impact on SQ and see what difference it actually makes…

 

[Bobvin]

Its… well - taking all discussed thoughts into account to make digital sound close to vinyl - in your/peoples opinion, what will have the biggest impact on the sound, the server/storage, the ethernet switch, the streaming bridge, the DAC, the software, the clock/reclocker… just asking to see what will have the biggest impact on SQ and see what difference it actually makes…

My opinion, the server and the DAC will have the biggest impact. Switches, routers, cables compliment and add incremental improvements. The choice of software used to interface with your library and streaming sources can have more than a trivial impact on sound quality, but will be important to your level of enjoyment as well. ROON is king of user-interface and the way it displays your streaming services and local library as one. It has drawbacks as every program does. Taiko “Extreme” server with its own XDMS player/software/interface isn’t as slick as Roon but the sound quality is a step up. (XDMS is threatening to finally be beta level software sometime soon, and many Taiko customers use it even though it has some warts to be expected in alpha level software under development.) If you like to browse your library by folder XDMS does that, ROON does not.

I used to be a bits are bits kind of guy, then learned how much different DACs can sound, even later realized the server plays a substantial role. your budget, of course will determine what level you participate.

 

[PYP]

… well - taking all discussed thoughts into account to make digital sound close to vinyl - in your/peoples opinion, what will have the biggest impact on the sound, the server/storage, the ethernet switch, the streaming bridge, the DAC, the software, the clock/reclocker… just asking to see what will have the biggest impact on SQ and see what difference it actually makes…

do you have a sense of your budget?

 

[bonzo75]

Before buying a boat, the owner must ask himself exactly how he will use it. Once this is understood, the choice becomes much easier.

let’s put it this way…given I live in a land where public transport is excellent, the few times I will actually get to sit down to drive myself, better be a boat instead of a car. Given that the format the car rides on, e.g. traffic in London or potholes in Mumbai…will never make any car as smooth sailing as something that rides on the water and wind format

 

[Mike Lavigne]

let’s put it this way…given I live in a land where public transport is excellent, the few times I will actually get to sit down to drive myself, better be a boat instead of a car. Given that the format the car rides on, e.g. traffic in London or potholes in Mumbai…will never make any car as smooth sailing as something that rides on the water and wind format

how much boating experience do you have?

given that the water surface is always moving, your supposition is almost always incorrect. water is, of course, soft, relative to a road surface. but the movement of the water is powerful.....like a constant earthquake on the road. and boats have lots of mass and momentum which the water tosses around like a rag doll.

if you ever get caught out in a bad storm on a boat, you will pray for the worst pot hole as an alternative.

harbor fair weather sailing is mostly benign. but the bad moments are much worse in a boat.

 

[bonzo75]

how much boating experience do you have?

given that the water surface is always moving, your supposition is almost always incorrect. water is, of course, soft, relative to a road surface. but the movement of the water is powerful.....like a constant earthquake on the road. and boats have lots of mass and momentum which the water tosses around like a rag doll.

if you ever get caught out in a bad storm on a boat, you will pray for the worst pot hole as an alternative.

harbor fair weather sailing is mostly benign. but the bad moments are much worse in a boat.

boat And potholes - somewhere in Bangalore

 

[Mike Lavigne]

boat And potholes - somewhere in Bangalore

View attachment 126096

the Graveyard of the Pacific, i've fished for Salmon right inside the Columbia River Bar most years for two decades. 60 to 100 foot boats can start up a wave and then flip backwards if they hit the bar wrong when the tide and wind are wrong considering the outflow of the huge Columbia River. epic forces at work.

 

[Bobvin]

epic forces at work.

Amen to that.

Remembering the footage of the tsunami in Japan several years back… nothing man made had a chance against those forces. Mind boggling, awe inspiring, terrifying.

[/end tangent]

 

[the sound of Tao]

Hah! That‘s like saying I will be using the car 80% of the time… but the 20% I use the boat it should be best enjoyable;-)

I think you are the only one who can nominate what you are expecting I guess. It does come down to really how invested you are in pursuing this… have you thought about auditioning some of the better dacs and server setups around your price range or have you heard any setups you have already been convinced by… if you’re not that passionate about it or in spending much more I’d think sticking with improving your vinyl (as you mentioned) might even be a more worthwhile consideration.

If you are looking at just improving your current digital and want a better more fatigue free more musical digital solution I’d think getting in a lampi dac would be a move definitely worth considering.

If you’re serious about working at this and if you have the funds then I’d consider stepping it up even further and looking at a taiko Olympus as a potential starting point when they come out in about a months time… if that is realistically within your budget I’d doubt I’d do anything else till then. There will be a flurry of feedback available here I’m sure and if you are thinking within that more exalted $$$ ballpark (and it proves as good as promoted) it might save you considering a dac at all and then just go with the internal Taiko DAC as a possible top end destination option from the sounds of a lot of the discussion around its launch.

Defining the context of how you expect the digital to be used (which for example Ron did specify when in his search) sets a reasonable container to work in on your options. If you’re just talking reworking for a basic usable improvement I’d focus on improving the components before getting in lots of digital infrastructure tweaks very much along the same lines of thoughts in @bobvin’s earlier post.

 

[skinnyfla]

… well, thanks for all the replies… I think I could use a philosophical evening with a bottle of good wine over this ;-)

… I am currently thinking about 2 options,

1.
Buying a Roon Nucleus and using this as „core“ and „server“ instead of my iMac and then going the inhouse networkroute via the router to the music room an installing an ethernet switch in the music room and going into my existing Auralic Aries G1 from there to the DAC

2.
Buying a Antipodes K22 and connecting it straight to the DAC in the music room, thus using it as Roon core, server and streaming bridge and replacing the iMac AND the Auralic Aries G1. As the Antipodes will be placed „behind„ the rounter as far as the signal path is concerned and it will feed the DAC directly I will only need internet/ethernet for the functionality of Roon, therefore also no switch.

I will mainly play direct files that are stored locally, be it ripped CDs oor bought downloads - streaming via services like Qobuz or Tidal are actually only of relevance to explore new music for me…

Any suggestions which solution would bring the better results?

These are just my thoughts to „plunging“ deeper into the digital domain for starters…

cheers,

 

[PYP]

… well, thanks for all the replies… I think I could use a philosophical evening with a bottle of good wine over this ;-)

… I am currently thinking about 2 options,

1.
Buying a Roon Nucleus and using this as „core“ and „server“ instead of my iMac and then going the inhouse networkroute via the router to the music room an installing an ethernet switch in the music room and going into my existing Auralic Aries G1 from there to the DAC

2.
Buying a Antipodes K22 and connecting it straight to the DAC in the music room, thus using it as Roon core, server and streaming bridge and replacing the iMac AND the Auralic Aries G1. As the Antipodes will be placed „behind„ the rounter as far as the signal path is concerned and it will feed the DAC directly I will only need internet/ethernet for the functionality of Roon, therefore also no switch.

I will mainly play direct files that are stored locally, be it ripped CDs oor bought downloads - streaming via services like Qobuz or Tidal are actually only of relevance to explore new music for me…

Any suggestions which solution would bring the better results?

These are just my thoughts to „plunging“ deeper into the digital domain for starters…

cheers,

I haven't tried the Antipodes gear, but firmly believe a specialized design such as the K22 will always be better than your option #1. Seems more convenient too.

I am very familiar with the Grimm MU1 (server/streamer/Roon core + endpoint). It costs a little more than the K22 but I would recommend researching both. And listening to both if you can. The MU1 would be connected to the DAC via AES or SPDIF, so that might be a factor for you if it requires the purchase of a cable you don't have.

One positive aspect of the MU1 is that it is mostly immune to incoming ethernet noise. The other positive feature is its upsampling. There are three possible setting to match it with your DAC. The upsampling adds refinement to the existing DAC.

 

[Ratbastrd]

… say, everyone is talking about the bad „noise“ that is coming from PCs, ethernet connections, routers and so on ruining or decreasing SQ… how does this „noise“ actually „sound“ or become noticable… I mean, my setup is ultra basic but dead quiet… so it can‘t be noise in a sense of a crackling/noisy record or such… what exactly is this noise polluting SQ and how does it sound?

For me, it is fatiguing granularity, particularly noticeable in the decay of symbols on otherwise well recorded tracks. Also muddy low end, particularly when listening to well recorded studio Jazz, listen to the picking of the stand up bass.

Another place I notice it is on noisy chaotic tracks, where there is a lot of inherent distortion in the music originally.

 

[Ratbastrd]

… I really don’t know whether to plunge into digital or just leave it at what it is and continuously improve vinyl… totally torn on this…

If it is done right, digital presents a level of access and efficiency which is hard to beat. I miss smoking a joint with friends but prefer the ease and healthier attributes of gummies if you know what I mean...LOL

 

[PYP]

I am very familiar with the Grimm MU1 (server/streamer/Roon core + endpoint). It costs a little more than the K22 but I would recommend researching both.

@skinnyfla Two relevant reviews:

Antipodes K41 and K22 Music Servers

Antipodes servers have always offered a wide range of server and player apps and this makes them unique in a world dominated by single-purpose servers and streamers. But the brand's core quality is that they are all about conveying the soul of the music.

www.hifi-advice.com

Grimm MU1

After countless Music Servers and Streamers, not to mention various server software and playback applications that I have tried throughout the years, I figured that, by now, surely, there'd be no more large surprises for me. Well, of course, that's when a new server entered my premises and...

www.hifi-advice.com

 

[jeromelang]

… say, everyone is talking about the bad „noise“ that is coming from PCs, ethernet connections, routers and so on ruining or decreasing SQ… how does this „noise“ actually „sound“ or become noticable… I mean, my setup is ultra basic but dead quiet… so it can‘t be noise in a sense of a crackling/noisy record or such… what exactly is this noise polluting SQ and how does it sound?

Listen with your eyes wide open

You can see the effects of the noise