Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[Tuckers]

I'm sad I've spent so much time reading this thread. At least I listened to some 20 year old electronic albums I haven't heard in a very long time.

 

[Al M.]

It could also be that your digital playback system is not optimal? We certainly cannot know by simply discussing things here. Nothing replaced listening...

That is always the question. Some people here describe their digital experience in sonic terms that make me scratch my head. I simply cannot reconcile that with the wonderful reproduction that I hear at home. They may even have expensive digital set-ups, but how optimized are these? Impossible to know if not heard in person.

And some deride vinyl playback in ways that make me scratch my head too. What they describe does not in any way sound like what I heard many times from very enjoyable, engaging and impressive high-level vinyl playback elsewhere.

 

[Audiophile666]

G

I have done exactly that.
I have 245 titles on tapes (1st generation copies from commercial production masters, safety masters, some edited work parts mostly of my own symphonic and chamber music recordings, tapes released by AP, Horchhouse, Tape Project etc.), all of which I have transferred from my Nagra T using a balanced differential tube tape head preamp of my own construction, to DSD128 with a Tascam DA3000 recorder.
I recently bought a PS Audio Directstream Mk 2 DAC. Declaration: I am a writer for PS Audio's Copper magazine and bought it at staff price. I have been comparing some of these DSD128 files with the same recordings on ripped CDs, downloads and streaming sites, as well as the vinyl records (mostly original issues, a few modern reissues) and of course, the tapes in my collection.
After some initial teething problems (mostly ultrasonic noise since my system is flat to 50kHz with a pair of plasma tweeters, and my preamp has 1 MHz bandwidth), I find that I have to set the volume of the DAC at 100% and use my preamp for volume control. The sensitivity of my system is such at I could only use the first 20% of the range of volume control of the DAC if I plug it straight into my active crossover, which results in too much noise. Everything is fine at 100% volume. I guess I could have soldered L pads into the XLR plugs, but little is lost going through the preamp.
Even though the DAC only has about 40 hours on it so far, it sounds really good. And I have only hooked it up to my Mac Mini running Audirvana via a throw away USB cable. Compared to the source tapes, it is tonally identical, maybe with a bit of loss in the dynamics. Sound stage, transparency, ambiance etc. are very close. Perhaps it has a bit less of the overwhelming scale and density of sound that tapes exhibit. There is no digital artifact that I could hear. It is of course impossible to know if any degradation was due to the digital recorder or the DAC. The files are preferable to the vinyl to my ears in almost every case. Interestingly, the LP that comes closest to the tape so far is a Decca wide band ED2 issue of the Solti Beethoven 3rd from 1959. I bought the LP second hand when I was in uni, and I have forgotten about it for more than 35 years until recently. This is a fantastic recording which strangely has never been reissued in the modern era. I have the Classic reissue of Royal Ballet Gala Performance. Compared to the Decca tape (made in the early 1970s for an LP reissue), the vinyl has a harder edge, or I should say, lacks the tubey magic of the tape. I guess this is due to the solid state electronics used during the mastering. The vinyl sounds more impressive initially, and seems more dynamic, but ultimately less musical and natural. I also compared the Doug Sax remastered Ravel disc from the VOX box set, reissued by AP (AP007). Even though Sax used tube electronics, the findings are similar to the Royal Ballet; seems more dynamic, but less natural tonally. I have also a number of recordings ripped from SACDs released by Esoteric. Again, I think the remastering sounds more hi fi. Bass and treble are often boosted, not to a great degree, but it gives the impression of better instrument definition and with better dynamics and weight, but ultimately less natural and real. The real test is by closing my eyes and imagining if the music is played live in a concert hall. The DSD transfer from tape almost always have more beautiful string tone and the sound has more body. The SACD rips usually sound more upfront and "tense". The differences heard on the LPs might also come down to the analogue playback equipment. It is hard to better a professional tape machine such as the Nagra.
I have never owned an exotic DAC, but just comparing the DSD128 files played through this DAC to the original source, it is often close enough that I doubt paying a lot more would result in any great improvement. On the other hand, if the files were made with a better ADC, such as the Merging Horus, more differences could be revealed. As it is, I am pretty happy listening to the DSD128 most of the time, and leave the tapes for special occasions.

Great comment , thanks

 

[Audiophile666]

The fact is that most masters(if not all ?) are digital, and only then transferred to vinyl
And the master sounds better than any transfer ,period.
You can't have anything sounding better than the master itself .
So what's the point of vinyl ?
Yeah I can accept that people like the more romantic sound of vinyl
But I want to hear the recording exactly as it was recorded in the studio, and digital is the only way to go in this case, especially DSD and other hi res files.

 

[dminches]

The fact is that most masters(if not all ?) are digital, and only then transferred to vinyl
And the master sounds better than any transfer ,period.
You can't have anything sounding better than the master itself .
So what's the point of vinyl ?
Yeah I can accept that people like the more romantic sound of vinyl
But I want to hear the recording exactly as it was recorded in the studio, and digital is the only way to go in this case, especially DSD and other hi res files.

Most masters are digital? What about everything recorded prior to 1983?

At least get your facts straight if you are going to make outrageous comments.

 

[Audiophile666]

Amir Majidimehr and most of ASR members are trying to prove us their wrong opinion is a scientific fact.

When you want to have scientific view about "human music listening experience" then there is no meaningful scientific fact in objective measurements (of audio hardware) if you ignore objective model of human hearing system (ear and brain) .

if you follow ASR forum finally you get a ridiculous SINAD number and you will convince a $1000 DAC is better than Wadax DAC, It is totally absurd.

Why Becaue a hi end audiophile DAC that costs $150K must sound better than a *professional * DAC used in studios that costs $2K that is used to actually *record * the music you are hearing?
Lol , the price has nothing to do with SQ.

 

[Audiophile666]

Most masters are digital? What about everything recorded prior to 1983?

At least get your facts straight if you are going to make outrageous comments.

I'm talking about music in the last 20 years
Before that obviously analog was used

 

[dminches]

I'm talking about music in the last 20 years
Before that obviously analog was used

It would be helpful if you would list your equipment in the about section so people have a reference point as to what you listen to.

 

[Audire]

It would be helpful if you would list your equipment in the about section so people have a reference point as to what you listen to.

I fully agree. The original question by ScottK was:

Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?​

Pearljam in all your claims you state that Digital is better than Vinyl. So if you have a system that demonstrats such than many of us would be all ears - esp. Scott. If you know of such a system then please answer Scott’s question.

So, Pearljam please list your equipment.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

The fact is that most masters(if not all ?) are digital, and only then transferred to vinyl
And the master sounds better than any transfer ,period.
You can't have anything sounding better than the master itself .
So what's the point of vinyl ?
Yeah I can accept that people like the more romantic sound of vinyl
But I want to hear the recording exactly as it was recorded in the studio, and digital is the only way to go in this case, especially DSD and other hi res files.

Another inaccurate statement. Though this maybe the trend today, as well as using autotuned and other masking, manipulative recording methods is it the industry standard ? Many studios offer both digital and analog options and one that I enjoy most of their artists is Third Man Records, they also offer direct to lacquer at their Nashville studio. I think many traditional and skilled musicians still prefer doing their work in an Analog studio laying tracks to tape, many do recognize that a digital interface will be used at one stage in the process. I for one prefer analog but their are excellent digitally mastered recording that sound wonderful streamed or on wax. My preference is owning the physical media, CD, LP, or ripped.

I think that Digital has a ways to go, and at some point the perceived SQ gap will close but not the investment that will need to be made to close that gap. Some can hear it and some cannot (the gap) I am cursed in being able to hear it. Wish I could live with the gear the folks at ASR endorse.

Here is the AI answer from ChatGPT

ChatGPT
Vinyl records are produced from a variety of sources, including both digital and analog master recordings. The sound quality of a vinyl record can depend on a number of factors, including the quality of the master recording, the quality of the pressing, and the quality of the playback equipment. Some audiophiles argue that vinyl records can have a superior sound quality compared to CDs, as the analog recording process can capture a wider dynamic range and a more natural sound. However, this is not universally true as digital recording technology has improved significantly since the 1980s and some modern digital recordings are considered to have a higher audio quality than analog recordings. It's important to note that the perceived sound quality of a vinyl record can also depend on the listener's personal preferences and the specific equipment used for playback. Ultimately, whether or not vinyl records are considered to have a superior sound quality compared to CDs is a matter of personal opinion.

 

[Rensselaer]

Another inaccurate statement. Though this maybe the trend today, as well as using autotuned and other masking, manipulative recording methods is it the industry standard ? Many studios offer both digital and analog options and one that I enjoy most of their artists is Third Man Records, they also offer direct to lacquer at their Nashville studio. I think many traditional and skilled musicians still prefer doing their work in an Analog studio laying tracks to tape, many do recognize that a digital interface will be used at one stage in the process. I for one prefer analog but their are excellent digitally mastered recording that sound wonderful streamed or on wax. My preference is owning the physical media, CD, LP, or ripped.

I think that Digital has a ways to go, and at some point the perceived SQ gap will close but not the investment that will need to be made to close that gap. Some can hear it and some cannot (the gap) I am cursed in being able to hear it. Wish I could live with the gear the folks at ASR endorse.

Here is the AI answer from ChatGPT

ChatGPT
Vinyl records are produced from a variety of sources, including both digital and analog master recordings. The sound quality of a vinyl record can depend on a number of factors, including the quality of the master recording, the quality of the pressing, and the quality of the playback equipment. Some audiophiles argue that vinyl records can have a superior sound quality compared to CDs, as the analog recording process can capture a wider dynamic range and a more natural sound. However, this is not universally true as digital recording technology has improved significantly since the 1980s and some modern digital recordings are considered to have a higher audio quality than analog recordings. It's important to note that the perceived sound quality of a vinyl record can also depend on the listener's personal preferences and the specific equipment used for playback. Ultimately, whether or not vinyl records are considered to have a superior sound quality compared to CDs is a matter of personal opinion.

ChatGPT tells lies. As stated earlier, a law practice is being sued because it asked ChatGPT to write up their legal argument citing historical precedents, which ChatGPT did, but the precedents it cited were made up. ChatGPT is like a little kid, trying to please but with no idea as to when someone is asking for something creative (eg. when ChatGPT asked to explain how to remove a peanut butter sandwich from the tape compartment of a VCR in the style of William Shakespeare, which it did in a very entertaining way, albeit totally made up), or factual. In addition, ChatGPT gets its information from the internet, which means that any old fiction that we have written on this forum is available as a source, ChatGPT has no idea that what has been written here is, at best, totally biased Opinion.

 

[Rensselaer]

I'm talking about music in the last 20 years
Before that obviously analog was used

You mean except for all those records made during the last twenty years that were direct-to-disc; as well as all those pure analogue recordings released by Acoustic Sounds, Classic Records Clarity, Electric Recording Company, fone’, Craft , Vinyl me Please, Tone Poet’s and a whole host of smaller specialist producers?

 

[adrianywu]

For modern recordings made with high rez digital, it makes no sense to put onto vinyl, except perhaps for those audiophiles who do not have digital playback. A lot of modestly priced digital gear sound very good indeed, and often sound better than record players of similar cost. For the megabucks analogue rigs, the result might be different. For old analogue recordings, if the transfer is done well, DSD can sound remarkably close to the original source, and avoids the type of artefacts associated with PCM. The problem is, many high rez digital remasters of old analogue materials are done with audiophiles in mind, which ironically often end up sounding less natural and musical. As for early digital recordings made with Redbook PCM standard, I think it is more or less a write off sound quality-wise.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

ChatGPT tells lies. As stated earlier, a law practice is being sued because it asked ChatGPT to write up their legal argument citing historical precedents, which ChatGPT did, but the precedents it cited were made up. ChatGPT is like a little kid, trying to please but with no idea as to when someone is asking for something creative (eg. when ChatGPT asked to explain how to remove a peanut butter sandwich from the tape compartment of a VCR in the style of William Shakespeare, which it did in a very entertaining way, albeit totally made up), or factual. In addition, ChatGPT gets its information from the internet, which means that any old fiction that we have written on this forum is available as a source, ChatGPT has no idea that what has been written here is, at best, totally biased Opinion.

I do not care if ChatGPT lies it reflected what I was finding in my search, Baby/Bathwater.... Now we are off in the woods discussing AI. So sorry to take you in the weeds.

Now lets get on track.

 

[Rensselaer]

I do not care if ChatGPT lies it reflected what I was finding in my search, Baby/Bathwater.... Now we are off in the woods discussing AI. So sorry to take you in the weeds.

Now lets get on track.

Then enter YOUR research and stop quoting unreliable gimmicks.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Then enter YOUR research and stop quoting unreliable gimmicks.

You do you buddy. I will do me.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

I am sure this has been posted in the past. Interesting none the less. Was in my search from earlier today.

What's going on when people talk about digital vs. analogue masters

We asked three mastering engineers to explain one of the most frequently misunderstood parts of the record manufacturing process. It’s been 10 years since vinyl sales began taking off again, and for the first time in a decade this summer saw the incredible growth in sales begin to slow down. In...

thevinylfactory.com

 

[SoundMann]

Some can hear it and some cannot (the gap) I am cursed in being able to hear it.

Good for you, and it is good to know that we have something more in common than being fellow Texans.

I myself have learned to embrace this curse, and truly enjoy making the best of it.

 

[steve williams]

actually Peter we all know why David isn't here any more. He quit and slammed the door behind him on the way out after he was correctly moderated by our team of moderators when he would not cease his ad hominem attacks on audiocrack who unfortunately took the bait and got into it as well. Both were banned for 3 days, a time out if you will. David said point blank he refused to be moderated (especially by one moderator in particular) and he said he's leaving for good. FWIW, audiocrack is still a valued member of this forum and continues to make informative posts. When someone gives us the ultimatum that they are leaving as they refuse to abide by our TOS and specifically names one of our valued moderators we take those comments at face value. There is no conspiracy theory as you continually suggest. It's time you let it go Peter. I think we all understand you but you continue to foster these theories and if anything it shines badly on you. Once again my $0.02 as a member here , just the same as Christoph.

I apologize to David Karmeli for my post. As David is no longer a member of WBF it was unfair of me to write anything about David, as he is not able to respond. I will refrain from mentioning David in the future

 

[Ron Resnick]

For modern recordings made with high rez digital, it makes no sense to put onto vinyl, except perhaps for those audiophiles who do not have digital playback.

+1 as a general rule

Except, inexplicably, sometimes those vinyl remasterings of digital recordings played back on an analog system sound better than the digital recordings played back on a digital system.

For old analogue recordings, if the transfer is done well, DSD can sound remarkably close to the original source,

For high-end audio purists like me "remarkably close" ain't nearly close enough. If we want to ascend the suspension of disbelief peak then no cost or inconvenience is too much to get there. For us, a miss by an inch ("remarkably close") is as bad as a miss by a mile.

As for early digital recordings made with Redbook PCM standard, I think it is more or less a write off sound quality-wise.

+1