Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[ScottK]

When I read the more extreme posts I’m left wondering if people’s systems are broken or something else is at play in their perceptions or hearing?? It’s hard to reconcile these extremes as understandable experiences. It would help if the more intractable at the extremes always shared their gear details to provide additional perspective. When I read of many people’s setups here I completely get their great passion and the various format championing. There’s some fairly amazing examples of gears and setups here across both sides of the great divide.

Road rage is equally confusing. I believe the extremes result from this format of communication rather than actual fact. No one would behave as some do here in person face to face. Alcohol could also explain some?

 

[ScottK]

I guess I should have said "often veiled"...

I have a similar experience. I sometimes refer to it as "homogenized". Not on all digital but apparent on many. Its revealed to me when I play the same album on my turntable and things just open up.

 

[Rensselaer]

BTW, you should read the opinions of most (not all, surely ) vinyl experts in this forum - their systems were under suboptimal until they learned the last trick, set up of turntables at shops and forums are miserable, the process used by their neighbor or the magazine expert is flawed, 99% of the vinyl audiophiles have poor set up ...

"99% of the vinyl audiophiles have poor set up ..."?

Naw, practicing vinyl audiophiles know how to set up their own turntables correctly. Perhaps the 99% with poor setup that you speak of found it too hard so gave up and went digital?

 

[Audire]

BTW, you should read the opinions of most (not all, surely ) vinyl experts in this forum - their systems were under suboptimal until they learned the last trick, set up of turntables at shops and forums are miserable, the process used by their neighbor or the magazine expert is flawed, 99% of the vinyl audiophiles have poor set up ...

Wow, I didn't know you were so busy. App. 82,000 TTs were sold in the U.S. in 2021 and that didn’t include the rest of the world…. You must be a great time organizer to visit every set up and determine that 99% of vinyl audiophiles have a poor setup. How do you ever find time to post on WTB?

 

[microstrip]

"99% of the vinyl audiophiles have poor set up ..."?

Naw, practicing vinyl audiophiles know how to set up their own turntables correctly.

It seems to me you have not been reading this forum with proper care ...
I always pretended vinyl setup was a simple affair, but experts disagreed with me!

Perhaps the 99% with poor setup that you speak of found it too hard so gave up and went digital?

 

[Al M.]

"99% of the vinyl audiophiles have poor set up ..."?

Naw, practicing vinyl audiophiles know how to set up their own turntables correctly. Perhaps the 99% with poor setup that you speak of found it too hard so gave up and went digital?

Or perhaps 99 % of vinyl fans who dislike digital have poor digital set-ups .

 

[microstrip]

Wow, I didn't know you were so busy. App. 82,000 TTs were sold in the U.S. in 2021 and that didn’t include the rest of the world…. You must be a great time organizer to visit every set up and determine that 99% of vinyl audiophiles have a poor setup. How do you ever find time to post on WTB?

In fact I was referring to old posts by other people and the 99% was humorous - apologies if you did not understand.
But nice to imagine that 80000 (95% of these 82000) TT owners are listening to digitally processed vinyl - surely my guess, not my field work.

IMO the vinyl resurgence has nothing to do with the matters we are discussing and its reference will only weaken the pro vinyl arguments.

 

[Audire]

In fact I was referring to old posts by other people and the 99% was humorous - apologies if you did not understand.
But nice to imagine that 80000 (95% of these 82000) TT owners are listening to digitally processed vinyl - surely my guess, not my field work.

IMO the vinyl resurgence has nothing to do with the matters we are discussing and its reference will only weaken the pro vinyl arguments.

Your statement was a deliberate overstatement to try to make your point. And of course now you include a “guess” about digital - again with no foundation in fact. And you make another overstatement that TT owners are now listening to digitally processed vinyl - some do, but many of us don’t.

 

[Al M.]

And you make another overstatement that TT owners are now listening to digitally processed vinyl - some do, but many of us don’t.

No, it's not an overstatement. Yes, among pro-vinyl audiophiles many are AAA purists -- good for them -- but the current vinyl resurgence among the "masses" is mostly fueled by digitally processed vinyl. It's a fake "analog" resurgence, and as Microstrip says, pro-vinyl audiophiles referring to it only weaken their own arguments.

 

[Audire]

No, it's not an overstatement. Yes, among pro-vinyl audiophiles many are AAA purists -- good for them -- but the current vinyl resurgence among the "masses" is mostly fueled by digitally processed vinyl. It's a fake "analog" resurgence, and as Microstrip says, pro-vinyl audiophiles referring to it only weaken their own arguments.

False. MS stated “TT owners are listening to digitally processed vinyl - surely my guess, not my field work.“ By his statement he implies “everybody” who listens to vinyl is listening to digital vinyl. He made no allowance that some weren’t listening to fake vinyl. So, his absolute statement (guess) is simply not the truth.

I could care less what others are doing. Many of us here in the retirement state of FL are in LP stores often as some old folks are getting rid of their entire systems - vinyl and digital, and thus sell their records for pennies on the dollar. I have a couple stores that have my search lists and when they get a good quality older record that’s on my list they set it aside and call me. I’m not the only one who does this. …

 

[Al M.]

False. MS stated “TT owners are listening to digitally processed vinyl - surely my guess, not my field work.“ By his statement he implies “everybody” who listens to vinyl is listening to digital vinyl. He made no allowance that some weren’t listening to fake vinyl. So, his absolute statement (guess) is simply not the truth.

I could care less what others are doing. Many of us here in the retirement state of FL are in LP stores often as some old folks are getting rid of their entire systems - vinyl and digital, and thus sell their records for pennies on the dollar. I have a couple stores that have my search lists and when they get a good quality older record that’s on my list they set it aside and call me. I’m not the only one who does this. …

You are diverting from your own post:

Wow, I didn't know you were so busy. App. 82,000 TTs were sold in the U.S. in 2021 and that didn’t include the rest of the world…. You must be a great time organizer to visit every set up and determine that 99% of vinyl audiophiles have a poor setup. How do you ever find time to post on WTB?

This post clearly implies that the 82,000 TT are from "vinyl audiophiles" -- but as we pointed out, most of these "vinyl lovers" are (many perhaps unknowingly) lovers of digitally processed vinyl, i.e., fake analog.

 

[microstrip]

False. MS stated “TT owners are listening to digitally processed vinyl - surely my guess, not my field work.“ By his statement he implies “everybody” who listens to vinyl is listening to digital vinyl. He made no allowance that some weren’t listening to fake vinyl. So, his absolute statement (guess) is simply not the truth.

False partial quote as any one could imagine. Why when people have no arguments they try distorting others indirectly answering to posts or going in secondary details?

But nice to imagine that 80000 (95% of these 82000) TT owners are listening to digitally processed vinyl - surely my guess, not my field work.

But you could have talked about my easy typing - I should have typed 77900

I could care less what others are doing. Many of us here in the retirement state of FL are in LP stores often as some old folks are getting rid of their entire systems - vinyl and digital, and thus sell their records for pennies on the dollar. I have a couple stores that have my search lists and when they get a good quality older record that’s on my list they set it aside and call me. I’m not the only one who does this. …

Ok, I see that your perspective of the high-end is influenced by the retired people in the state of FL ...

 

[ScottK]

No, it's not an overstatement. Yes, among pro-vinyl audiophiles many are AAA purists -- good for them -- but the current vinyl resurgence among the "masses" is mostly fueled by digitally processed vinyl. It's a fake "analog" resurgence, and as Microstrip says, pro-vinyl audiophiles referring to it only weaken their own arguments.

I’ve had difficulty setting up my Crosley turntable. Am I missing something?

 

[Audire]

This post clearly implies that the 82,000 TT are from "vinyl audiophiles" -- but as we pointed out, most of these "vinyl lovers" are (many perhaps unknowingly) lovers of digitally processed vinyl, i.e., fake analog.

Wrong again, as MS didn’t use the word “most.” As I already pointed out above, MS stated “TT owners are listening to digitally processed vinyl …” MS implies that “all” people using TTs were using digital vinyl, not most of them! So, he was in error and so are you because you didn’t properly read his post…

The mention of 82,000 TTs sold in the U.S. wasn’t a reference to the vinyl surge of our time. You and MS added the vinyl resurgence to the conversation, not me. Rather the mention of 82,000 TTs was to demonstrate that MS never heard every TT in the U.S and thus he doesn’t actually actually know for a fact the 99% of TTs are set up incorrectly. So he exaggerated in order to make his point.

PS: Many of the people that purchase vinyl buy it used. Statically 70% of people enjoy older music over the newer. Of course, some of the used vinyl is digital as well (maybe that’s why some get rid of it).

Is Old Music Killing New Music?

 

[Al M.]

Ok, I see that your perspective of the high-end is influenced by the retired people in the state of FL ...

LOL

 

[Rensselaer]

No, it's not an overstatement. Yes, among pro-vinyl audiophiles many are AAA purists -- good for them -- but the current vinyl resurgence among the "masses" is mostly fueled by digitally processed vinyl. It's a fake "analog" resurgence, and as Microstrip says, pro-vinyl audiophiles referring to it only weaken their own arguments.

So, the OP asks; "can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?", the answer, provided the vinyl was recorded/processed from digital to begin with, then yes, at an equivalent price, but can digital get to well-mastered, well-recorded AAA vinyl? No, not yet.

Though I own mostly AAA vinyl, I keep a few digital to vinyl records around for demonstration purposes. Saturday, I invited a friend and hi fi equipment dealer, over to listen to some records (to hear if there was a difference after I changed my compression drivers to Alnico). My friend prefers digital to most analogue, quite a bit, so I thought I would ask him to participate, to demonstrate the difference on a level playground as it were, i.e. someone not already convinced of the superiority of AAA over digital (as far as vinyl recordings go that is).

First, I played for him a track off a recently acquired Electric Recording Company LP (Sax 2394, Samson François playing Ravel, Piano Concerto in G Major): then, (Tacet L 74) Die Rohre - The Tube, Stuttgart Kammerorchester: then, Vince Guaraldi Trio Jazz Impressions of Black Orpheus (Craft Small Batch, one-step process), then; the doorbell rang, a package arrived from the States containing the Craft recording of Chet Baker's Classic 1959 Riverside Album "Chet", mastered from the analogue master by Kevin Gray, so without washing it first, I played the first track of side one, then; Arne Domnerus and Gustaf Sjokvist playing Antiphone Blues, the ltd ed. recut by AudioNautes Recordings of the proprius record (that he owns at home), then: the Santana Abraxas Ultradisc One-Step by Mobile Fidelity that £2000 was being asked for on Discogs (cut from digital files, it is believed by many to be indistinguishable from AAA).

This is anecdotal only, of no scientific value but of interest for those who believe there can be honest reporting: First, would those out there who believe digital to be equal or better than analogue agree that the £180 Mobile Fidelity One Step 45 RPM Ultradisc vinyl releases must be near to if not the finest quality digital-to-vinyl recordings available at any price? My friend said that the last record (the MoFi Ultradisc digital-to-vinyl) "lacks the emotion" that all the others produced. He said nothing about better dynamic range, he said nothing about better frequency response, but then, he was listening, not reading.

 

[Audire]

Though I own mostly AAA vinyl, I keep a few digital to vinyl records around for demonstration purposes.

Thanks for this post. Very helpful. When the MoFi situation happened I got rid of my few one steps…. But your idea of keeping some for demonstration purposes is great. I’ll have to purchase some for that purpose. Thanks again.

 

[SoundMann]

Our memories vanish with time - about forty years ago audiophiles applied similar words to the sound of moving coil cartridges versus moving magnet cartridges - MC's were glorified , MM's were bashed as an inferior product ...

Most MM's do sound inferior to most MC's. There are just a handful that do not.

For me the interesting technical subject is why some people consider that vinyl "breathes life in the sound".

Greater musicality, realism, resolution and inner detail along with a greater dynamic range of scale may be the reason.

 

[Al M.]

My friend said that the last record (the MoFi Ultradisc digital-to-vinyl) "lacks the emotion" that all the others produced.

I have heard an old MoFi record of Miles Davis, Sketches of Spain that sounded thick, lifeless and lame, indeed lacking emotion. It may still have been an AAA reissue, not sure. The 2009 CD of Sketches of Spain is way, way better, with more life and emotion.

I don't think a lame sounding MoFi says anything meaningful about analog, digital, or digital mastering.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Greater musicality, realism, resolution and inner detail along with a greater dynamic range of scale may be the reason.

clearly the analog recording, mastering and playback processes lose much less of the musicality than the digital processes. not claiming why or how, but it's easy to hear it.

the 'life' is not the part that vinyl adds, it's the part that the analog process does not remove.

like an organic orange verses a non organic one. how do you describe the difference in the taste?