Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[Republicoftexas69]

I can assure you that I’m not all knowing and don’t ever think of myself as the smartest person in the room. But when challenged on those things that I do know, I’m confident enough to hold my ground.

I bet you can. Have a good rest of you day.

 

[chuck]

I currently have both digital and vinyl front ends. For the most part I think my vinyl playback sounds, let's say, 10% better than most of my comparable digital recordings (IMO). I've got the itch to try MSB or DCS stacks to take out that last percentage . Problem is I'm not convinced I could get there even after spending 10"s of thousands of dollars to do it. I'm fairly happy with my current DAC/Streamer and was thinking it might make better sense to wait a couple of years to see what may shake out of vendors in this fast changing technology. For those who are or were in a similar situation any advice would be appreciated.View attachment 113795

I got to that point a few years ago. Listened to a lot of DACs including those, bought the Playback Designs MPT8 and MPD8. I stopped buying vinyl not long after. Still have my vinyl rig and records but don't listen to it very often.

 

[microstrip]

So in due diligence, I went back and read through my “There is a smarter way” thread and confirmed that all the details are there. Perhaps you need to be spoon fed the information, which I’m not willing to do.

It is very obvious that our level of understanding and comprehension are on different planes. Even if I sat you down and explained it to you bit by bit I’m not too sure now that you would grasp it based on not being able to interpret the information already provided.

As I mentioned in my thread, the “Remastering” concept and implementation is not for everyone. It requires intelligence. So it may not be for you.

The supporting evidence is that others here have grasped and shown a clear understanding of the concept and the elements at play.

The only evidence is that people gave up understanding the implementation and the original thread died. Please go on being the only one marching in step. And sorry to see that, as with other people in this forum, you try switching to a battle of insults again.

 

[SoundMann]

I do not think so. I can we guess the tonal balance of the speakers used for example, in the mastering?

They use several types of speakers, most of which are well known and used in nearly every studio.

They also use industry standard monitoring headphones.

It's the lack of hearing acuity found with the people of this profession that should be the most troubling.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

The only evidence is that people gave up understanding the implementation and the original thread died. Please go on being the only one marching in step. And sorry to see that, as with other people in this forum, you try switching to a battle of insults again.

Yes it was quite the yawn...........yarn.

 

[microstrip]

They use several types of speakers, most of which are well known and used in nearly every studio.

They also use industry standard monitoring headphones.

It's the lack of hearing acuity found with the people of this profession that should be the most troubling.

You are right, but the question is that we can't guess what they used in a particularly recording - only exceptionally technical details are listed. In absence of knowledge, we can not claim accuracy.

 

[Al M.]

You are right, but the question is that we can't guess what they used in a particularly recording - only exceptionally technical details are listed. In absence of knowledge, we can not claim accuracy.

And then you also have Audio's Circle of Confusion, which puts into question meaningful standardization and with that, claims of "accuracy":

Audio's Circle of Confusion

Audio’s “Circle of Confusion” is a term coined by Floyd Toole [1] that describes the confusion that exists within the audio recording and r...

seanolive.blogspot.com

 

[hopkins]

To circle back to digital vs analog... It seems that vinyl appeals to many because they find it breathes life into the sound, whereas digital seems dull and artificial. I personally don't know why vinyl, when done right, can sound so pleasing, and frankly I don't care to understand. We can argue endlessly about this, with lots of technical information whose significance is hard to evaluate.

My main interest is to see how good digital can sound, consistently across all my recordings. At the end of the day, analog is not a "reference". Why would it be? Who says that's the best we can do?

 

[ScottK]

I got to that point a few years ago. Listened to a lot of DACs including those, bought the Playback Designs MPT8 and MPD8. I stopped buying vinyl not long after. Still have my vinyl rig and records but don't listen to it very often.

I‘m trying to resist buying new vinyl. Have a rather large collection I bought 20 years ago. Eventually I will tire or be unable to deal with the mechanics of record play. Hopefully when that happens digital will be there?

 

[Al M.]

To circle back to digital vs analog... It seems that vinyl appeals to many because they find it breathes life into the sound, whereas digital seems dull and artificial.

If you find digital dull, lifeless and artifical, then you have a problem with digital implementation in your system. It's not a problem of digital per se.

I am very happy with the lively, exciting yet also well-flowing music from digital that I hear at home.

 

[Audiophile666]

Vinyl sounds romantic and "musical " Becaue it has distortion that digital doesn't have
No logical man can think a needle on a spinning plastic plate can be more accurate than digital

 

[Ron Resnick]

No logical man can think a needle on a spinning plastic plate can be more accurate than digital

A) Logic is not the human sense we hear with, so I don't understand what logic has to do with subjectivist audio.

B) I don't know what you mean here by "accurate." (I wonder if even you know what you mean by "accurate.")

Accuracy is not one of our four main objectives of high-end audio. Please consider our starting point list for this topic:

1) recreate the sound of an original musical event,

2) reproduce exactly what is on the master tape,

3) create a sound subjectively pleasing to the audiophile, and

4) create a sound that seems live.

Perhaps by "accurate" you mean "2) reproduce exactly what is on the master tape"?

C) "Analog" means analog; analog does not mean "vinyl." If the mechanism of vinyl reproduction is too old-school for you, then think in terms of analog tape, which is played on a machine with which you might be more comfortable.

D) In this hobby world "musical" is a compliment, not an insult.

 

[ScottK]

Vinyl sounds romantic and "musical " Becaue it has distortion that digital doesn't have
No logical man can think a needle on a spinning plastic plate can be more accurate than digital

You need to have a conversation with Carlos269. I’m sure the two of you can get this sorted out.

 

[Audire]

Vinyl sounds romantic and "musical " Becaue it has distortion that digital doesn't have
No logical man can think a needle on a spinning plastic plate can be more accurate than digital

My “spinning plastic plate” is made of Delrin and cast iron, and the subplatter of copper, aluminum, and stainless-steel. It weighs 180 lbs. I don't have any needles on my TT, but my wife uses them to sew with.

However, I’m glad that you agree that vinyl sounds both romantic and musical - as it does and it offers such sonic realness and so much more …

 

[Audiophile666]

2) reproduce exactly what is on the master tape,

3) create a sound subjectively pleasing to the audiophile, and

4) create a sound that seems live.

Perhaps by "accurate" you mean "2) reproduce exactly what is on the master tape"?

C) "Analog" means analog; analog does not mean "vinyl." If the mechanism of vinyl reproduction is too old-school for you, then think in terms of analog tape, which is played on a machine with which you might be more comfortable.

Actually number 2 is my only goal as an audiophile

 

[Ron Resnick]

Actually number 2 is my only goal as an audiophile

I thought that was the most likely candidate for your objective.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Actually number 2 is my only goal as an audiophile

then dsd won't cut it. if you bother to compare directly, it will require tape or vinyl.

tape will be equivalent, nearly identical. vinyl will add a little something, but will be musically complete. dsd or pcm will be slightly diminished and by degrees incomplete. this is assuming you are using top level examples of each format.

OTOH digital can sound top notch and be much more access able. just don't expect it to equal the tape and you are golden.

 

[Solypsa]

Actually number 2 is my only goal as an audiophile

You are using data points reasonably well, but you might benefit by asking different questions. Just my opinion.

For example:

1) If dac chips and opamp chips have been pushing the theoretical boundaries for noise and distortion for 40+ years is everything now, using such or better, the same sonically?

2) what measurements matter?

3) If you have heard great mid century recordings in their native format, played on decent equipment, do they sound 10-100x inferior to modern digital renditions? If not why? They should right?

 

[chuck]

I‘m trying to resist buying new vinyl. Have a rather large collection I bought 20 years ago. Eventually I will tire or be unable to deal with the mechanics of record play. Hopefully when that happens digital will be there?

Digital is there now. My Playback Designs digital is as good or better than my excellent Reed 3C turntable vinyl. Each is about MSRP $40K. I did a comparison again last week because of all the chatter on this thread claiming digital is inferior.

 

[Solypsa]

Digital vs analog is ultimately about recordings anyway.

Recordings show performances

Systems show recordings