Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[Amir]

The problem with Digital music is mainly the way they master the recordings.

+1

 

[Rexp]

Yes

Eelco Grimm doesn't think current DSD ADC's are good enough and is developing a new fpga based ADC.

 

[adrianywu]

Eelco Grimm doesn't think current DSD ADC's are good enough and is developing a new fpga based ADC.

Look forward to hearing his new ADC. The AD1 was well ahead of its time.

 

[Solypsa]

I agree with Grimm. The problem with Digital music is mainly the way they master the recordings.

This is not hard for me to accept ( and I was involved in mastering in the past ) yet I wonder what aspects you feel are the negative influence? DSP? Analog 'roundtrip' for processing? ,or?

 

[adrianywu]

This is not hard for me to accept ( and I was involved in mastering in the past ) yet I wonder what aspects you feel are the negative influence? DSP? Analog 'roundtrip' for processing? ,or?

For classical, most recordings now employ too many microphones, which introduces phase cancellations and often sound spatially unnatural. Most commercial recordings still employ a lot of compression/limiting, the so called loudness wars, which ruins the dynamics. Most consumers listen through earbuds nowadays, and needs to have a narrower dynamic range so that they can hear the low level details. This is unsatisfactory for us listening on systems with a full dynamic range.

 

[Solypsa]

For classical, most recordings now employ too many microphones, which introduces phase cancellations and often sound spatially unnatural. Most commercial recordings still employ a lot of compression/limiting, the so called loudness wars, which ruins the dynamics. Most consumers listen through earbuds nowadays, and needs to have a narrower dynamic range so that they can hear the low level details. This is unsatisfactory for us listening on systems with a full dynamic range.

Agreed on all points. The first ( too many microphones ) is not a mastering issue of course, but the latter certainly can be ( and also in the recording process too.) I appreciate your comments.

 

[rando]

For classical, most recordings now employ too many microphones, which introduces phase cancellations and often sound spatially unnatural. Most commercial recordings still employ a lot of compression/limiting, the so called loudness wars, which ruins the dynamics. Most consumers listen through earbuds nowadays, and needs to have a narrower dynamic range so that they can hear the low level details. This is unsatisfactory for us listening on systems with a full dynamic range.

Cue photographic evidence of pop recording studio gear in basement of concert hall with Angels and near gods busy assembling a nectar beyond purity itself. This is a mastering issue.

 

[Rotatoubib]

We are accustomed to multi-microphone recording, with woodwinds, brass and strings well individualized; the recording of the Brahms symphonies with Rattle in direct pressing with only 2 microphones is remarkable (and unaffordable on Discogs because it is a limited edition) but not to everyone's taste, although Rattle himself says that recording is the closest thing to what he hears from his desk

 

[adrianywu]

We are accustomed to multi-microphone recording, with woodwinds, brass and strings well individualized; the recording of the Brahms symphonies with Rattle in direct pressing with only 2 microphones is remarkable (and unaffordable on Discogs because it is a limited edition) but not to everyone's taste, although Rattle himself says that recording is the closest thing to what he hears from his desk

The fact that most Mercury Living Presence and RCA Living Stereo recordings were made with three microphones, it is hard to argue that one needs more than 3 microphones for a stereo recording in most cases. There might be an argument for adding a shotgun microphone for a large choir, but one can do very well indeed with must three strategically placed microphones to record a whole orchestra. In fact, Marc Aubort only used two microphones for stereo recordings, and four for Quadraphonic. However, such an approach requires a lot of experimentation, and the seating arrangements of players need to be carefully considered. This was not an issue when the engineers were very experienced with their recording venues (Wilkie in Kingsway Hall, Bob Fine in Watford Town Hall, Gunter Hermann in Jesus Christ Church etc.).

 

[Gregm]

Microphone placement during the recording is very interesting, not least because it goes a long way to explaining the sometimes strange artefacts we hear in the end product.

Revisiting the original question and assuming the same recording is reproduced in digital and analogue, I have, subjectively, singled out two weaknesses* in the real-life digital playback:

a) sounds / instruments in the background (second third plains) seem to sink into obscurity;
Many sounds occurring concurrently seem to mess things up.... Out of many dacs I've heard (not all, obviously), only the Ideon Epsilon & the Wadax get over this shortcoming.
I listen to classical, so I would like to hear a simulation of the full orchestra, at least as much of it as I can fit into my room

b) easily audible / perceptible full-frequency response
For some reason, you either get high frequencies (i.e. DCS style, as in solving an equation) or midrange, or mid bass...
Again, only the the Ideon Epsilon & the Wadax seem to bother reproducing both double-basses or church organs and triangles and violins and the top notes of a harp at the same time. Uncanny for a tech should measurably reproduce a sine wave from DC to daylight


* I know that according to specs, my impressions are absurd, in fact I am living with a dac that has 134.01/ 133.98dB channel separation (by comparison, the exceptional Allaerts cartridge has around 100), huge dynamic range, etc. (My 13inch arm with its mm (vintage empire) can hardly reach 30dB channel separation on a good day!)

 

[PYP]

Microphone placement during the recording is very interesting, not least because it goes a long way to explaining the sometimes strange artefacts we hear in the end product.

Revisiting the original question and assuming the same recording is reproduced in digital and analogue, I have, subjectively, singled out two weaknesses* in the real-life digital playback:

a) sounds / instruments in the background (second third plains) seem to sink into obscurity;
Many sounds occurring concurrently seem to mess things up.... Out of many dacs I've heard (not all, obviously), only the Ideon Epsilon & the Wadax get over this shortcoming.
I listen to classical, so I would like to hear a simulation of the full orchestra, at least as much of it as I can fit into my room

b) easily audible / perceptible full-frequency response
For some reason, you either get high frequencies (i.e. DCS style, as in solving an equation) or midrange, or mid bass...
Again, only the the Ideon Epsilon & the Wadax seem to bother reproducing both double-basses or church organs and triangles and violins and the top notes of a harp at the same time. Uncanny for a tech should measurably reproduce a sine wave from DC to daylight


* I know that according to specs, my impressions are absurd, in fact I am living with a dac that has 134.01/ 133.98dB channel separation (by comparison, the exceptional Allaerts cartridge has around 100), huge dynamic range, etc. (My 13inch arm with its mm (vintage empire) can hardly reach 30dB channel separation on a good day!)

very interesting. And you have listened to these DACs using the same amplification? And have you had the opportunity to listen to them with different kinds of amplification? Just wondering what role the amplification plays in what you have heard (which I don't doubt in any way).

 

[SoundMann]

a) sounds / instruments in the background (second third plains) seem to sink into obscurity;
Many sounds occurring concurrently seem to mess things up.... Out of many dacs I've heard (not all, obviously), only the Ideon Epsilon & the Wadax get over this shortcoming.
I listen to classical, so I would like to hear a simulation of the full orchestra, at least as much of it as I can fit into my room

b) easily audible / perceptible full-frequency response
For some reason, you either get high frequencies (i.e. DCS style, as in solving an equation) or midrange, or mid bass...
Again, only the the Ideon Epsilon & the Wadax seem to bother reproducing both double-basses or church organs and triangles and violins and the top notes of a harp at the same time. Uncanny for a tech should measurably reproduce a sine wave from DC to daylight

Lack of both resolution and fluid dynamic range of scale, coupled with time/phase nonlinearities results in these anamolies.

* I know that according to specs, my impressions are absurd, in fact I am living with a dac that has 134.01/ 133.98dB channel separation (by comparison, the exceptional Allaerts cartridge has around 100), huge dynamic range, etc. (My 13inch arm with its mm (vintage empire) can hardly reach 30dB channel separation on a good day!)

25dB is usually sufficient with a good, well recorded pressing.

 

[Al M.]

Microphone placement during the recording is very interesting, not least because it goes a long way to explaining the sometimes strange artefacts we hear in the end product.

Revisiting the original question and assuming the same recording is reproduced in digital and analogue, I have, subjectively, singled out two weaknesses* in the real-life digital playback:

a) sounds / instruments in the background (second third plains) seem to sink into obscurity;
Many sounds occurring concurrently seem to mess things up.... Out of many dacs I've heard (not all, obviously), only the Ideon Epsilon & the Wadax get over this shortcoming.
I listen to classical, so I would like to hear a simulation of the full orchestra, at least as much of it as I can fit into my room

b) easily audible / perceptible full-frequency response
For some reason, you either get high frequencies (i.e. DCS style, as in solving an equation) or midrange, or mid bass...
Again, only the the Ideon Epsilon & the Wadax seem to bother reproducing both double-basses or church organs and triangles and violins and the top notes of a harp at the same time. Uncanny for a tech should measurably reproduce a sine wave from DC to daylight


* I know that according to specs, my impressions are absurd, in fact I am living with a dac that has 134.01/ 133.98dB channel separation (by comparison, the exceptional Allaerts cartridge has around 100), huge dynamic range, etc. (My 13inch arm with its mm (vintage empire) can hardly reach 30dB channel separation on a good day!)

Really, all those difficulties, solvable with only the Ideon or Wadax? Have you ever considered that your computer audio might be sub par?

 

[Joe Whip]

I am with Al. I hear all these things in my system with the lowly Yggy LIM.

 

[Al M.]

I am with Al. I hear all these things in my system with the lowly Yggy LIM.

Me too with mine. Just sayin'.

 

[microstrip]

Microphone placement during the recording is very interesting, not least because it goes a long way to explaining the sometimes strange artefacts we hear in the end product.

Optimal microphone placement and/or mixing should be different for analog or digital recording.

Revisiting the original question and assuming the same recording is reproduced in digital and analogue, I have, subjectively, singled out two weaknesses* in the real-life digital playback:

Can we know the exact recordings you used in the listening and you consider to be "the same recording"?

a) sounds / instruments in the background (second third plains) seem to sink into obscurity;
Many sounds occurring concurrently seem to mess things up.... Out of many dacs I've heard (not all, obviously), only the Ideon Epsilon & the Wadax get over this shortcoming.
I listen to classical, so I would like to hear a simulation of the full orchestra, at least as much of it as I can fit into my room

I found so for some time with old DACs. However since some years ago I found this mess to be caused by the interaction with amplification and cables, speaker placement and room acoustics.

b) easily audible / perceptible full-frequency response
For some reason, you either get high frequencies (i.e. DCS style, as in solving an equation) or midrange, or mid bass...
Again, only the the Ideon Epsilon & the Wadax seem to bother reproducing both double-basses or church organs and triangles and violins and the top notes of a harp at the same time. Uncanny for a tech should measurably reproduce a sine wave from DC to daylight

A signal of a poor balanced system for digital. If in your opinion only two particular DACs solve this problem, the problem is yours, not of the remaining hundreds of DACs.

* I know that according to specs, my impressions are absurd, in fact I am living with a dac that has 134.01/ 133.98dB channel separation (by comparison, the exceptional Allaerts cartridge has around 100), huge dynamic range, etc. (My 13inch arm with its mm (vintage empire) can hardly reach 30dB channel separation on a good day!)

Only if you interpret the specifications improperly.

 

[Audire]

Well after receiving our new Vitus MP Phono Pre the gap between digital and analogue has widened - a lot. This said, we do have a Taiko Extreme + Switch on order (probably get the Router too) so the gap mat narrow somewhat.

 

[Rexp]

I am with Al. I hear all these things in my system with the lowly Yggy LIM.

Sure but we all hear differently, right?

 

[Al M.]

Sure but we all hear differently, right?

And we all have different set-ups and system contexts.

 

[Gregm]

very interesting. And you have listened to these DACs using the same amplification? And have you had the opportunity to listen to them with different kinds of amplification? Just wondering what role the amplification plays in what you have heard (which I don't doubt in any way).

I listened to them with the same amplification and cables, etc. I also had the opportunity to listen to some in different systems, but not critically; it was mostly at the dealers who then let me borrow the devices for home audition, except for the Wadax, and the Ideon, and the big Lampi (not the Horizon) that I also listened to in a private system.

As you mentioned, the effect can very well be due to amplification or cabling, etc. My amplification is Symphonic Line Kraft. I (obviously) like the sound, it is punchy, powerful and dynamic and does not run out of steam, but it does not offer the resolution of, say, an equivalent CH Precision.

I listened to a lot of music, blues, classical and jaz, but primarily compared using Jochum's Carmina Burana, (Klemperer's Messiah, and) Tchaikovsky, Liturgy of St John Chrysostome

Please note that is a personal and subjective impression, not a review, test, or otherwise objective assessment or wall-to-wall criticism of the excellent DACs available out there (nor do I sell such products).
Regards