Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[hopkins]

Neither have I. And not the one I quoted.
The example I gave concerned a single metric, albeit an important one in digital audio, and we should not generalize to extreme conclusions.

And last point, what he described in that quote are not the result of listening impressions but are substantiated by specific measurements. Here is the full post if you are interested: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/is-jitter-an-issue-with-usb-signals.290973/post-4724351

End of parenthesis.

 

[microstrip]

And last point, what he described in that quote are not the result of listening impressions but are substantiated by specific measurements. Here is the full post if you are interested: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/is-jitter-an-issue-with-usb-signals.290973/post-4724351

Thanks. Jitter is really an hard subject. Some of the very expensive preferred CD transports used in the high-end had high jitter - and I have liked them for a lot of years! Creating jitter in a DAC is extremely easy - adding controlled noise to the DC supply of the clock IC is a well know way of doing it. At that time we could also "listen" to the jitter just amplifying the voltage signal of the PLL of many DACs. Curiously all these experiments of the 90's are now forgotten.

Currently I have moved to the opposite - the extremely well measuring dCS Vivaldi Apex - Taiko Extreme and I am very happy with it.

 

[hopkins]

Thanks. Jitter is really an hard subject. Some of the very expensive preferred CD transports used in the high-end had high jitter - and I have liked them for a lot of years! Creating jitter in a DAC is extremely easy - adding controlled noise to the DC supply of the clock IC is a well know way of doing it. At that time we could also "listen" to the jitter just amplifying the voltage signal of the PLL of many DACs. Curiously all these experiments of the 90's are now forgotten.

Currently I have moved to the opposite - the extremely well measuring dCS Vivaldi Apex - Taiko Extreme and I am very happy with it.

I would like to listen to that "combo", but the opportunity has not presented itself, and I allocate only a small budget to audio (out of choice) so it would simply be out of curiosity.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I would like to listen to that "combo", but the opportunity has not presented itself, and I allocate only a small budget to audio (out of choice) so it would simply be out of curiosity.

You don't have to buy anything expensive, for example an old Sony 557ESD has a very low jitter of 125 psec. For comparison, a DCS Verdi 138 psec sideband. I never liked the sound as a CD player, but as a transport for a DAC it's a stunner.If you value it just try it.

 

[Al M.]

You don't have to buy anything expensive, for example an old Sony 557ESD has a very low jitter of 125 psec. For comparison, a DCS Verdi 138 psec sideband. I never liked the sound as a CD player, but as a transport for a DAC it's a stunner.If you value it just try it.

I am using a Simaudio Moon transport with 115 psec jitter, but I follow it up with a Mutec reclocker to further lower jitter. Quite considerable difference, more analog sounding. An external 10 MHz clock for the Mutec to lower jitter even more is an upgrade that I am considering for some point in the future.

 

[Rexp]

The problem is that people conflate digital music technology with digital music implementation. When I take a live mike feed from my mixing console and do A to D, and then D to A to feed my monitoring system, there is NO noticeable difference from the original signal on A/B comparison, at least with the equipment and the format (DSD128) that we use. With PCM, even 24/192, we can hear a difference. But with DSD128, none of us in the team can hear any difference. Therefore, the actual digital conversion process is transparent. Of course, once the data is recorded, stored and playback, other factors come into play. With modern digital recordings, the ease and convenience of manipulating the signal can be a distraction, and it is often these manipulations that ruin the recording. We once attended a recording session of a classical label where they used over 100 microphones. No kidding. How the hell can anyone make a coherent sounding recording this way ? They were supposed to pick which tracks to mix back at the studio, but given the large number of combinations possible, and the problem with phase cancellations etc., it is pure madness.
There are also inherent problems with digital technology. Early Redbook digital had problems with the steep brick wall filter, which could be solved with oversampling. But one problem that remains unsolvable is the lack of resolution at low signal levels. The ears are much more sensitive in resolving detail at low SPL, but the the PCM format does not devote more bits to represent low level signals. This is probably because the format was invented by engineers with little understanding of psychoacoustics. At the lower end of the dynamic range, Redbook CD does not have nearly enough resolution to realistically reproduce a music signal. It is like watching a movie at 8 fps, where the movements become jerky because the frame speed is not high enough to fool the brain into thinking that the movement is continuous. DSD has a one bit resolution and basically just tracks the analogue waveform, which is why it sounds more like real world sound. Such is the state of the art today that if one records music to DSD with a high end professional ADC and play back on a high end DAC, I bet nobody can tell the difference between the original analogue and the digital on blind testing.

Which ADC do you use and which DAC at home?

 

[adrianywu]

i own 1000 vinyl rips to DSD128, and own the vinyl too. easy to hear what DSD128 is not able to retain. yes, there are less than perfect parts of the ADC-DAC process, of course.

but if i do a 1:1 dub with my tape deck i literally cannot tell the difference. if i do a second dub from the first one and compare it to the original, now i hear a touch of noise. but otherwise the same.

the two processes are magnitudes different in retaining the musical message. every digital conversion loses something. no exceptions.

I think the process of recording the data and retrieving it probably imposes some penalty. The fact that real time conversion to DSD and back to analogue shows very little degradation means that the actual encoding scheme of DSD is correct. The other problems related to data transfer such as jitter, read and write error etc. still require improvement.

 

[adrianywu]

The previous post reminded me that I have a (probably stupid) question: how is the original analogue signal "stored" and played back in order to compare it to the "digital" playback?

On 15ips, 1/4" tape.

 

[adrianywu]

How do you account for Adrian not hearing a difference between live and DSD128? Could he be using a better ADC?

Monitoring through an ADC such as the Merging Horus is quite different from storing the data and then playing back. The process happens in a linear fashion on the same clock signal.

 

[adrianywu]

Which ADC do you use and which DAC at home?

At home, I use the Tascam DA3000 recorder and the PS Audio Directstream Mk2 DAC.

 

[adrianywu]

Hey @Mike Lavigne, have you worked in 32/384? I find that the 32 bit versions sound significantly closer or equivalent to the DSD256 files. Also, I have noticed that live conversion AD to DA can sound like you describe tape, but the second it goes into a file that's what knocks down the quality. I've also noticed working in mastering software (this is older experience, I haven't used any in 15 years), that taking the master file and even trimming the beginning and end (basically any manipulation of the original recorded file in editing), reduces sound quality. Just wondering if you've experienced anything like that.

When we were using an Alesis Masterlink years ago, we found that changing to a different brand of hard disk changed the sound, even though the specs were the same.

 

[ScottK]

Some of us work in innovation, development and problem solving for a living and we don’t leave that at the door when we come home. It is in my blood to see a concept such as the audiophile process, which is terribly flawed, and think of ideas and ways to fix it, at least for myself and anyone willing to break free from the dogma. You call it a disorder, perhaps as I have never been one for blind acceptance. As I finished college I was destined to be a theoretical physicist, my destiny would change that, but in that field of study, knowledge and theories, you simply don’t accept or limit yourself. That thought process and attitude towards life has stayed with me and I’m glad that it has as it has allowed me to excel in both my professional world and with my hobbies.

Most talented people in all fields are innovative Carlos. I don’t think you corner the market on this. I’m an Architect and Ph.d. Economist. I try to innovate when called for every day. The key is “when called“ for. A very famous designer Charles Eames who designed the famous Eames chair that many audiophiles use as a listen chair said “innovate at last resort”. That statement shows a maturity of thought.

 

[facten]

I was just searching my PC bookmarks for something and resident amongst them I ran across a 2022 blog post on Vinyl vs Digital by Eelco Grimm of Grimm Audio . You may have read it, but passing it along in the advent that you haven't and just want to read his view.

Vinyl versus Digital - Grimm Audio

The Dutch online magazine Alpha Audio did an unusual live stream on Sunday Feb 27th. In collaboration with Artone Studio in Haarlem, a live recording was made of singer songwriter Tim Knol, running both a completely analog (vinyl!) recording chain and a completely digital recording chain in...

www.grimmaudio.com

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Most talented people in all fields are innovative Carlos. I don’t think you corner the market on this. I’m an Architect and Ph.d. Economist. I try to innovate when called for every day. The key is “when called“ for. A very famous designer Charles Eames who designed the famous Eames chair that many audiophiles use as a listen chair said “innovate at last resort”. That statement shows a maturity of thought.

Interesting combination of fields, Economics and Architecture. And such a great statement. As an engineer with in MBA and manages sales engineers I appreciate your candor.

 

[Audiophile666]

Please change the thread's title to :
"Can vinyl get to digital sound and at what price?"
Thanks

 

[Solypsa]

At this point it's feeling like trolling. And I am not dogmatic about either technologies.

 

[SoundMann]

Please change the thread's title to :
"Can vinyl get to digital sound and at what price?"

The answer is easy. Make pressings from digital sources that highlight all of digitals deficiencies!

No need to buy new equipment.

 

[adrianywu]

I was just searching my PC bookmarks for something and resident amongst them I ran across a 2022 blog post on Vinyl vs Digital by Eelco Grimm of Grimm Audio . You may have read it, but passing it along in the advent that you haven't and just want to read his view.

Vinyl versus Digital - Grimm Audio

The Dutch online magazine Alpha Audio did an unusual live stream on Sunday Feb 27th. In collaboration with Artone Studio in Haarlem, a live recording was made of singer songwriter Tim Knol, running both a completely analog (vinyl!) recording chain and a completely digital recording chain in...

www.grimmaudio.com

I agree with Grimm. The problem with Digital music is mainly the way they master the recordings. Which is why a straight digital transfer with no manipulation from a production master tape almost always sounds better than the vinyl LP.

 

[Rexp]

I agree with Grimm. The problem with Digital music is mainly the way they master the recordings. Which is why a straight digital transfer with no manipulation from a production master tape almost always sounds better than the vinyl LP.

Are you referring to DSD transfer from analogue master tape?

 

[adrianywu]

Are you referring to DSD transfer from analogue master tape?

Yes