Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[Carlos269]

no, and not familiar with HQPlayer?

Many Denafrip Terminator and Terminator Plus owners using HQPLAYER to upsample everything to PCM 1,536 KHz or even better transcode to DSD512 and DSD1024. If you try it, HQPLAYER would change your world and save you some money on a new dac. Go over to AudiophileStyle and learn about the details.

 

[AudioDoctor20]

no, and not familiar with HQPlayer?

Boy, where to start. HQP is like upsampling times 1 million, and done off board in a computer to take advantage of the massive amounts of processing power available in modern CPUs and in the case of nvidia GPUs as well. It takes a while to get your head around it and all the options, but once you find the one you like, it's magic.

www.signalyst.com is their website, but like the poster above me said, www.audiophilestyle.com to read more about it and the people who use it specifically with their Denafrips DACs.

edit: HQPlayer can also do Convolution, which I guess is sort of like an EQ except where an EQ might have up to 12 regions which you can adjust, the Convolution Engine can do some crazy number limited only by your computing power. IIRC the convolution engine I am using for my headphones right now has ~36,000 adjustments versus 12 on the EQ you and I are familiar with. Because I have a basic understanding of it and not all the math and stuff that go into it. It looks like voodoo to me. But it works.

 

[AudioDoctor20]

Let me see if laying out my system for you will help you understand it some.

Currently, I am sitting at my desk at my Mac Studio and using JPLAY to select and play the music files I am listening to while I write this. JPLAY gets it's files from either Qobuz or my TrueNAS. I have Minimserver running on the machine that also runs HQPlayer, sitting next to my NAS and running Ubuntu Server and HQPlayer embedded. That machine does its HQP magic, then sends the audio over my network to a Sonore Signature Rendu SE Optical and to my DAC via USB.

One of the cool things is I can control where JPLAY sends the music due to having multiple endpoints around the house. So if, for example, I did not want to be sitting at my desk but instead in the family room I can tell JPLAY to send the music there, go in and set HQP, via its web interface on my iPad, to the settings for that different device, if needed, and be in the family room with the family and background music, or letting my girls choose the music, listening with my wife, etc...

This all sounds much more complicated than it is. I realize that as I read it back while I wait for the screen capture of JPLAY to be shrunk. No clue why that is taking so long.

the Now Playing interface of JPLAY

 

[AudioDoctor20]

JCAT, maker of JPLAY, also claims their server/streamer was voiced to sound analog like and a reviewer said it was difficult to distinguish between digital and vinyl. Take that for what it's worth.

XACT S1 - JCAT . next-gen computer audio

XACT S1 STATE-OF-THE-ART DIGITAL TRANSPORT & MUSIC SERVER FEATURING WORLD’S 1ST LINEAR POWERED MOTHERBOARD for high-end audio playback. JCAT introduces flagship series – XACT – which demonstrates the very best that can be achieved in digital audio playback. The S1 music server is a statement...

jcat.eu

 

[ScottK]

Let me see if laying out my system for you will help you understand it some.

Currently, I am sitting at my desk at my Mac Studio and using JPLAY to select and play the music files I am listening to while I write this. JPLAY get's it's files from either Qobuz or my TrueNAS. I have Minimserver running on the machine that also runs HQPlayer, sitting next to my NAS and running Ubuntu Server and HQPlayer embedded. That machine does its HQP magic, then sends the audio over my network to a Sonore Signature Rendu SE Optical and to my DAC via USB

One of the cool things is I can control where JPLAY sends the music to multiple endpoints around the house. So if, for example, I did not want to be sitting at my desk but the family room I can tell JPLAY to send the music there, go in and set HQP via its web interface on my iPad to the settings for that different device, if needed, and be in the family room with the family and background music, or letting my girls choose the music, etc...

Thanks for the feedback. I've been looking into it a bit. Sounds like it's primarily a computer based solution. I use an Innuos Zenith Mk 3 as my server/streamer. Looks like some have "hacked" it to install on Zenith. Seems well above my pay grade. Others suggest Roon has many similar features. However I use the Innous Sense App as I find it sounds better than Roon.

 

[AudioDoctor20]

Thanks for the feedback. I've been looking into it a bit. Sounds like it's primarily a computer based solution. I use an Innuos Zenith Mk 3 as my server/streamer. Looks like some have "hacked" it to install on Zenith. Seems well above my pay grade. Others suggest Roon has many similar features. However I use the Innous Sense App as I find it sounds better than Roon.

I wont go too deep into Roon, but I am not a fan of the sound either.

And you're correct, it is computer and network based. It can be run all on one directly attached computer but I don't believe that's the optimal way to run it. I don't know how the Zenith works, or how it outputs, but HQP embedded does accept UPNP inputs, that's how Minimserver and JPLAY interact with it. But only Embedded, the Desktop version loses that functionality.

 

[SoundMann]

How do you account for Adrian not hearing a difference between live and DSD128? Could he be using a better ADC?

The latest studio converters have up to 16 dacs per channel, which greatly improves the resolution as well as the linearity and signal to noise ratio.

Accuphase is the only mainstream company I know of that builds such a dac for consumers.

 

[Tuckers]

but the rub is to find the native file. i have plenty of files that are DXD 352/24,, some that are DSD256 but started out as DXD352/24, and then others that are native DSD256. native wins to my ears every time.

Hey @Mike Lavigne, have you worked in 32/384? I find that the 32 bit versions sound significantly closer or equivalent to the DSD256 files. Also, I have noticed that live conversion AD to DA can sound like you describe tape, but the second it goes into a file that's what knocks down the quality. I've also noticed working in mastering software (this is older experience, I haven't used any in 15 years), that taking the master file and even trimming the beginning and end (basically any manipulation of the original recorded file in editing), reduces sound quality. Just wondering if you've experienced anything like that.

 

[Rensselaer]

I have heard an old MoFi record of Miles Davis, Sketches of Spain that sounded thick, lifeless and lame, indeed lacking emotion. It may still have been an AAA reissue, not sure. The 2009 CD of Sketches of Spain is way, way better, with more life and emotion.

I don't think a lame sounding MoFi says anything meaningful about analog, digital, or digital mastering.

It is not just one lame-sounding MoFi. Every single digital-to-vinyl record that I purchased (the record producers don’t write on the covers when the master or processing is digital) sounds flat and lacks emotion-stimulating qualities (whatever those are).

You say that a CD sounds great compared to the MoFi LP of the same artist? Well that may be (who am I to argue), but why can’t the owner of the rights (I am talking to you Sony) keep digital to CD and streaming, and pure analogue to LPs and audio tape? That would stop all this bickering and each camp would be happy.

 

[Amir]

Give a true 1-bit chipless DSD dac a listen and you may very well feel otherwise.

the digital sound quality problem is not PCM and DSD has no advantage to PCM in theory.
DSD and PCM are just format of data and both are OK .

When dac manufactures tell you about 1-bit chipless DSD design or r-2r design or any other specs it means those manufactures are trying to sell their dac by affecting on your mind.

check the Wadax specification and nothing is special there but the sound quality is very good.

 

[Rexp]

It is not just one lame-sounding MoFi. Every single digital-to-vinyl record that I purchased (the record producers don’t write on the covers when the master or processing is digital) sounds flat and lacks emotion-stimulating qualities (whatever those are).

You say that a CD sounds great compared to the MoFi LP of the same artist? Well that may be (who am I to argue), but why can’t the owner of the rights (I am talking to you Sony) keep digital to CD and streaming, and pure analogue to LPs and audio tape? That would stop all this bickering and each camp would be happy.

Sometimes the vinyl version of a digital recording does sound better, like this one I mentioned earlier. And here is video of a modern digital recording sounding better on vinyl.

 

[Rotatoubib]

And, just a tip, ice creams cause minimal glucose spikes compared to other desserts like brownies, so you can have many.

Are you sure?

 

[Tuckers]

I've been looking into it a bit. Sounds like it's primarily a computer based solution.

Yes, using HQPlayer you need to have a very powerful PC or Mac as your source in order to reach those dramatic bit rates. There is the issue of the cleanliness of the PC environment for audio, and it is expensive and very tweaky to ameliorate. A Zenith is not powerful enough to upscale anywhere close to the highest bit rates these guys are talking about. Innuos's philosophy is be as simple as possible and to use the least amount of CPU and power as possible to enhance sound quality.

You either like what upsampling does to music or you don't. I have worked in the area in the past, but I've never found a satisfactory 100% improvement, it always comes with some negatives. I did play with an HQPlayer PC a year ago, while I didn't get to the highest sample rates, it was not rewarding enough to invest the extra thousands of resources and hundreds of hours to pursue.

But you can buy tracks that have been upsampled with their very top process and compare to the originals. I did this recently and it was not for me. The results were smoother, more liquid, deeper bass, more crystalline highs. But the cost was loss of fine detail in vocal, less acoustic quality to instruments, less natural ambience, less dynamic jump overall to the sound. So like I said, it either works for your priorities or doesn't.

If you want to compare, you might want to check some NativeDSD releases. I upgraded to their Plus plan recently. This allows you to buy the highest resolution track, and download all other sample rates as well. So by buying the DSD512 version which is upsampled in the professional version of HQPlayer, you can also download the non-upsampled version to compare. There are other albums out there. Also the following album is fantastic and state of the art sonically.

Nagra 70th Anniversary Collection

 

[Argonaut]

The latest studio converters have up to 16 dacs per channel, which greatly improves the resolution as well as the linearity and signal to noise ratio.

*Accuphase is the only mainstream company I know of that builds such a dac for consumers.*

“ There are no less than 24 R2R converters per channel in the Kassandra Signature Limited Edition working as parallel switched resistor ladder converters, cancelling the deviation of resistor values down to Zero. Paralleling R2R converters improves linearity and noise figures are improved on the same principles, along with the dynamic range and channel separation.”

Kassandra Signature Limited Edition Product Page – Aries Cerat

aries-cerat.com

 

[bonzo75]

Are you sure?

the spikes, yes. you can check with a glucose monitor.

The have as many as you want is a joke obviously

 

[Rensselaer]

Are you sure?

Wether the sugar spike is lower, or quicker to drop to normal levels doesn’t really matter. Whenever the glucose level climbs above normal, the basement membrane (holds the blood vessels that feed underlying tissues such as nerves, retina, kidneys, major blood vessels) irreversibly thickens. Every time one cheats and eats simple carbs, the membrane gets a little thicker. Eventually it thickens enough to pull the blood/oxygen-conveying capillaries from the nerves and arteries that they here-to-fore fed, causing said nerves and blood vessels to die and calcify up. That is why diabetics with poorly controlled sugar end up with poor circulation and cold feet, leg ulcers, amputations, peripheral neuropathy, renal failure, heart damage, dementia and blindness.

 

[Rotatoubib]

Wether the sugar spike is lower, or quicker to drop to normal levels doesn’t really matter. Whenever the glucose level climbs above normal, the basement membrane (holds the blood vessels that feed underlying tissues such as nerves, retina, kidneys, major blood vessels) irreversibly thickens. Every time one cheats and eats simple carbs, the membrane gets a little thicker. Eventually it thickens enough to pull the blood/oxygen-conveying capillaries from the nerves and arteries that they here-to-fore fed, causing said nerves and blood vessels to die and calcify up. That is why diabetics with poorly controlled sugar end up with poor circulation and cold feet, leg ulcers, amputations, peripheral neuropathy, renal failure, heart damage, dementia and blindness.

I don't think I'll be eating any more ice cream

 

[bonzo75]

Wether the sugar spike is lower, or quicker to drop to normal levels doesn’t really matter. Whenever the glucose level climbs above normal, the basement membrane (holds the blood vessels that feed underlying tissues such as nerves, retina, kidneys, major blood vessels) irreversibly thickens. Every time one cheats and eats simple carbs, the membrane gets a little thicker. Eventually it thickens enough to pull the blood/oxygen-conveying capillaries from the nerves and arteries that they here-to-fore fed, causing said nerves and blood vessels to die and calcify up. That is why diabetics with poorly controlled sugar end up with poor circulation and cold feet, leg ulcers, amputations, peripheral neuropathy, renal failure, heart damage, dementia and blindness.

So what about non-diabetics? You might know CGM, non-diabetics can use it too these days, where you keep it plugged into your arm and monitor spikes on the app. While it does show simple carbs leading to spikes, as well as desserts, it shows that having protein and fat ahead of carbs reduces/flattens spikes, as does a brisk walk after. With Ice creams, it is probably the mixing with fat that seems to keep spikes low compared to other desserts.

 

[Rensselaer]

The

Sometimes the vinyl version of a digital recording does sound better, like this one I mentioned earlier. And here is video of a modern digital recording sounding better on vinyl.

View attachment 114188

vinyl played? Are you certain that LP is AAA?

 

[Rensselaer]

So what about non-diabetics? You might know CGM, non-diabetics can use it too these days, where you keep it plugged into your arm and monitor spikes on the app. While it does show simple carbs leading to spikes, as well as desserts, it shows that having protein and fat ahead of carbs reduces/flattens spikes, as does a brisk walk after. With Ice creams, it is probably the mixing with fat that seems to keep spikes low compared to other desserts.

What I wrote only applies to diabetics and pre-diabetics, as they have genetically altered insulin and/or glucose receptor sites in the cell membranes, making the conversion of sucrose into glucose and bringing that glucose through the membrane into the cytoplasm (where it runs through Krebs cycle to give us energy), difficult.

The receptor site is an allosteric enzyme that looks like a tuning fork, comes to the cell surface and emits a signal to the body, interpreted as hunger, to cause the liver and large muscles to release glucagon and the pancreas to release insulin (insulin needs to bind with the allosteric enzyme, and sugar, in order to get the job done).

Type one diabetics can’t make insulin, type two diabetics (or pre-diabetics) either produce a genetically malformed insulin, or release pro-insulin instead of insulin, or have one or more genetic malformations in their receptor enzymes in the cell membranes (they have identified 28 different mutations so far, the more one has, the worse their diabetes).

As stated, when low on glucose (needed to make ATP, the energy currency for life, cyanide stops the electron transport chain at the end of Krebs from working, instant death) the receptor enzymes put out a signal the we equate with hunger. One eats to stop that signal but if the allosteric enzyme can not transport glucose through the cell membrane because of genetic malformations, hunger persists and the person keeps eating in order to get relief. It is that inherited genetic malformation not allowing glucose to get across the membrane (glucose resistance) that makes diabetics over-eat and get fat, it is not being fat that causes diabetes. We don’t screen for this before marriage so, like male-pattern baldness, diabetes is becoming ever-more prevalent.

Unfortunately, as the diabetic gets fatter, they grow more cells, cells that need feeding too but they also have genetically altered receptor enzymes, so a viscous circle.

The only way to prevent this is, per “Dr. Bernstein’s Diabetes Solution”, is to stop eating carbs, or a diet which is very low in carbs.