Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[SoundMann]

A film negative absolutely does not have equivalent resolution to a digital capture. It is orders of magnitude lower.

I'm sorry to inform you of this, but I and Henning Serger has conducted tests that have proven this theory wrong.

There is currently no commercially available digital capture device that exceeds the average median resolution of film.

Furthermore, ADOX CMS 20 II records to the very limit of light itself.

The problem is, there is no way for us to see this resolution but thru a laboratory grade microscope.

 

[PeterA]

Because vinyl sounds most like a live event? Or does vinyl have a sound signature (can't think of a better term) that you enjoy and therefore becomes your standard?

Agree that one must consider the entire system, not just the source.

PYP, you only quoted part of my post. My comment was simply that what many here would consider an old and out of date digital source can still sound excellent in the right system. To answer the question of the original post, one must fully understand the context of the system and the vinyl against which the digital is compared.

 

[Rexp]

What I have read from your posts is that you would benefit from learning a thing or two from those computer geeks.

Like what?

 

[ScottK]

Take a look at my thread, as I have also come to the conclusion that the mastering process has the most overall impact on sound quality, regardless of medium:

Re-Mastering Your High-End Audio System

Interesting read. In a primitive way you're arguing to bring back tone controls? I have fooled with many "equalization" tools and never found them very helpful. It could be my lack of skill/knowledge?

 

[SoundMann]

Interesting read. In a primitive way you're arguing to bring back tone controls? I have fooled with many "equalization" tools and never found them very helpful. It could be my lack of skill/knowledge?

I have found digital eq's to only degrade the signal passing thru them. But studio-grade analog eq's such as the one I use in my apartment successfully perform the task given them.

 

[Carlos269]

Like what?

Like what you are hearing during vinyl playback is a compound of the harmonics, compression, and phase distortion of magnetic tape embedded in the transfer, further amalgamated by the inherent distortions from the mechanical playback mechanism.

 

[Carlos269]

Interesting read. In a primitive way you're arguing to bring back tone controls? I have fooled with many "equalization" tools and never found them very helpful. It could be my lack of skill/knowledge?

Scott, you either didn’t read the entire thread or you did not comprehend the concept. What I do is far from tone control or eq’ing, in the classic sense. Read it in its entirety when you have the time and you will see that I’m using very sophisticated sound sculpting tools, which top mastering engineers use as part of their process.

 

[ScottK]

As another side note, I went to a friends house last week to hear him play piano. He is very good but what struck me is how far we are, in the hifi world, from reproducing actual sound. Personally I don't think we will get there with current tech. Mostly we argue about preference for some artificial facsimile of sound.

 

[SoundMann]

As another side note, I went to a friends house last week to hear him play piano. He is very good but what struck me is how far we are, in the hifi world, from reproducing actual sound. Personally I don't think we will get there with current tech. Mostly we argue about preference for some artificial facsimile of sound.

You are learning.

 

[Carlos269]

I have found digital eq's to only degrade the signal passing thru them. But studio-grade analog eq's such as the one I use in my apartment successfully perform the task given them.

George, do you know or have you ever met or had a conversation with Daniel Weiss? Daniel Weiss was responsible for the Harnonia Mundi digital workstation, amongst many other things, and his digital processors are world class standards in the high end studio mastering world.

 

[SoundMann]

further amalgamated by the inherent distortions from the mechanical playback mechanism.

Not inherent, just difficult and costly to overcome.

 

[SoundMann]

George, do you know or have you ever met or had a conversation with Daniel Weiss?

Yes. An interesting man full of interesting ideas

 

[wil]

This reminds me of how top quality film in static photography did, possibly still does, have more resolution than digital backs. Similar subject IMO.
But yes, I can see how 'kind' distortions, artefacts and even tape hiss can do strange things to our auditory system. I have no idea medically why, I am relaying just what I can hear. Anyone have any other theories on why?

Measurements and tech data tell us something, but hard core listening also has merit IMO in designing any audio product to go 'beyond' tech data alone.

I wonder what the resolution of our ears really is, if we tried to 'digitise it? To get the exact same sound hard wired to the brain. My dogs probably think any hifi we care to play around them sounds aweful Ha Ha.

I've noticed that comparisons of digital/film photography often come up on audio forums. And it's always brought forth as yet another adjunct to the tireless analog is superior, digital is inferior argument.

As my audio experience is purely at the end-point listening level I can only comment from that limited perspective. As far as the Photography argument goes, I can speak from a professional level of actually producing fine art prints. And I've seen thousands of prints from the grotesque to the sublime.

There are definitely valid comparisons between digital/analog Photography and Audio to be made.

The best film photography prints are wonderful particularly when sourced from large format film.
And my experience is that the best digital photography prints are equal to or superior to the best film-based prints, particularly when sourced with advanced medium format digital sensors.

And similar to Audio, the end result (the photographic print) is all about the skill and artistry of the person making the final product, not the raw materials that go into that product.

Poorly produced digital photography/audio results in trash. In photography, the result, the Print, is in the hands of the printmaker just as the final results of audio recording are in the hands of the mastering engineer. (It goes without saying that the steps that come before the printing or mastering are essential as well)

In photography the digital tools at hand are infinitely more diverse and powerful than those of film based photography. And these tools are often abused which result in brutal, un-natural looking prints. But in the hands of the best printmakers the results are refined, subtle and life-like.

It's more about execution than materials.

 

[Carlos269]

As another side note, I went to a friends house last week to hear him play piano. He is very good but what struck me is how far we are, in the hifi world, from reproducing actual sound. Personally I don't think we will get there with current tech. Mostly we argue about preference for some artificial facsimile of sound.

Head on over to the “Suspension of Disbelief” thread and you will see that some systems get you close, in some instances.

 

[Rexp]

Like what you are hearing during vinyl playback is a compound of the harmonics, compression, and phase distortion of magnetic tape embedded in the transfer, further amalgamated by the inherent distortions from the mechanical playback mechanism.

Probably and it still sounds better than digital on most recordings. And not just the old stuff like Led Zep, here's a newish Jazz recording (analog) that sounds great on vinyl and garbage on digital:

 

[SoundMann]

Probably and it still sounds better than digital on most recordings. And not just the old stuff like Led Zep, here's a newish Jazz recording (analog) that sounds great on vinyl and garbage on digital:
View attachment 113738

Can you link to who sells this record?

 

[manisandher]

Here's a comparison of a direct to disc AAA recording vs a 24/96 digital recording of a live performance run simultaneously.

Interesting video. Thanks for sharing.

My key takeaway: both the vinyl lacquer and the 24/96 digital are miles behind the live performance (when he played the song again). It was an expensive replay system they used, but perhaps its cost doesn't correlate well with its sound quality?

And of course, it's a YouTube video... though the differences in sound are surprisingly easy to hear.

Mani.

 

[manisandher]

Here is another article on digital music from Chord Electronics in their M Scaler DAC Technology

Not a fan of Chord or Watts.

 

[Rexp]

Can you link to who sells this record?

Try Discogs

Ferit Odman - Dameronia With Strings

View credits, reviews, tracks and shop for the 2015 Vinyl release of "Dameronia With Strings" on Discogs.

www.discogs.com

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Try Discogs

Ferit Odman - Dameronia With Strings

View credits, reviews, tracks and shop for the 2015 Vinyl release of "Dameronia With Strings" on Discogs.

www.discogs.com

other Ferit Odman vinyl is digitally sourced. so stick with that album if you want an actual all analog pressing.