Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[Mike Lavigne]

What are you calling "native capture"? For me it is a meaningless word for the subject I was addressing - ADC conversion.

read this, and then this.

also the Wave Kinetics Ilia Itin solo piano dsd256 recording i referenced earlier was also a pure dsd256 recording, as well as direct tape recording from the same mic feed.

agree terms get thrown around without proper use. it takes some effort to get to the real stuff. honestly i don't worry about the full 24 bit performance issue. beyond my area of interest. i care i'm getting what is sounding the best for the time being.

 

[microstrip]

read this, and then this.

also the Wave Kinetics Ilia Itin solo piano dsd256 recording i referenced earlier was also a pure dsd256 recording, as well as direct tape recording from the same mic feed.

agree terms get thrown around without proper use. it takes some effort to get to the real stuff. honestly i don't worry about the full 24 bit performance issue. beyond my area of interest. i care i'm getting what is sounding the best for the time being.

Well, thanks, I am the one who often quotes sentences and comments ideas from the people referred in these pages, particularly on the analog versus digital debate - they have their own ideas on it ... . But the links do not add anything concerning my ADC question about your reference to "native capture" for DXD.

My only point is that if we want to debate others preferences and find motifs for them, as well as ours, we must use a technical language with a proper meaning. Digital is much more complex than single bit or multi bit samples.

BTW, my music listening and buying is driven mostly by my musical preferences - probably it is why I am strongly biased to DXD - I have several native DXD recordings but only one native DSD recording.

 

[Jeffy]

Is there an analog input on the merging Horus to record to DXD? Also it would have to have a digital meter and a way to adjust the input signal.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Is there an analog input on the merging Horus to record to DXD? Also it would have to have a digital meter and a way to adjust the input signal.

i'm no expert on digital ADC's, or how the Horus works. but the Horus is a modular network device where the studio specs the channels and capability to be installed and scales it to the anticipated need. i think it works directly with mic preamps or analog boards. maybe the Horus can also change input gain by itself? but all that is beyond my knowledge.

here is a link, dive in as deep as you want.

Merging Technologies | Horus Mic Pre & AD/DA Converter with RAVENNA & AES67

Horus is a RAVENNA and AES67 compatible Network Mic Preamp and ADDA converter with operating sample rates from 44.1 to 384kHz DXD/DSD256.

www.merging.com

 

[adrianywu]

DSD is really an archive medium, since one cannot do much post-production other than simple editing without converting the data to PCM. As we do mostly recordings of live performances, we do a realtime stereo mix on a Studer mixer and record to tape and DSD128 in parallel. One partner sets up a multi-track digital platform using the Horus if he is involved in the project. We use up to 8 microphones most of the time. I tend to prefer my tape/DSD to the end result of his multi-track using DXD, but he likes to do all sorts of manipulation back in the studio, so it is hard to say which is better.

 

[Rexp]

Blue Coast Records record to DSD, I only listen to their stuff on Tidal at 16/44.1, still sounds good. What do others think of tracks like this:

 

[billeames]

Hello

I am trying to get an idea of what CD players can sound as good as or nearly as good as a $50,000 turntable setup. For example, clearaudio master innovation or Air Force three premium.
Also, a player that will not smear piano notes. In my opinion the turntable does not. I am of the school that likes the clearaudio master innovation, more than the DCS Vivaldi. Relaxing, rounder notes.

My personal candidates on my radar.

1) CH precision, C1.2 and C1.5 combination.
Have heard it. Price too high though
unknown
2) CH precision, C1.2 and Esoteric K01X transport. Combo Not heard by me.
3) Esoteric Grandioso K1X or K1XSE not heard
SE is later this year.
4). Esoteric k01xd. Not heard.
5). A simaudio dac with transport. Unknown which one. Not heard.


I hesitate to list dcs rossini apex, as the turntable was noticeably superior, but not greatly superior.

Thank you

bill

 

[billeames]

Oops, meant D1.5 as CH precision transport.

 

[Dave777tx]

Hello

I am trying to get an idea of what CD players can sound as good as or nearly as good as a $50,000 turntable setup. For example, clearaudio master innovation or Air Force three premium.
Also, a player that will not smear piano notes. In my opinion the turntable does not. I am of the school that likes the clearaudio master innovation, more than the DCS Vivaldi. Relaxing, rounder notes.

My personal candidates on my radar.

1) CH precision, C1.2 and C1.5 combination.
Have heard it. Price too high though
unknown
2) CH precision, C1.2 and Esoteric K01X transport. Combo Not heard by me.
3) Esoteric Grandioso K1X or K1XSE not heard
SE is later this year.
4). Esoteric k01xd. Not heard.
5). A simaudio dac with transport. Unknown which one. Not heard.


I hesitate to list dcs rossini apex, as the turntable was noticeably superior, but not greatly superior.

Thank you

bill

How about a Lampizator DAC? The Horizon

 

[billeames]

Hello
I want to assure the most bits are coming through. I would hope that any Esoteric would do it but the K1X has best transport, higher spec than non-grandioso. I can't say whether the difference is audible. I do know that CH precision does better with its own transport than a lower price MacIntosh transport.

Any DAC would do its best of the bits coming through. But can certain transports/DACs approach a high end turntable? Other than ch precision.


A stopgap (while waiting to afford 90k) that could be way greater than an Esoteric K01X would be an option. It would have to less than $15k. Or keep what I have and learn to enjoy that.

Lampizator does allow 7 days trial. I don't think that's long enough if differences are less than large.

 

[Al M.]

Hello

I am trying to get an idea of what CD players can sound as good as or nearly as good as a $50,000 turntable setup. For example, clearaudio master innovation or Air Force three premium.
Also, a player that will not smear piano notes. In my opinion the turntable does not. I am of the school that likes the clearaudio master innovation, more than the DCS Vivaldi. Relaxing, rounder notes.

My personal candidates on my radar.

1) CH precision, C1.2 and C1.5 combination.
Have heard it. Price too high though
unknown
2) CH precision, C1.2 and Esoteric K01X transport. Combo Not heard by me.
3) Esoteric Grandioso K1X or K1XSE not heard
SE is later this year.
4). Esoteric k01xd. Not heard.
5). A simaudio dac with transport. Unknown which one. Not heard.


I hesitate to list dcs rossini apex, as the turntable was noticeably superior, but not greatly superior.

Thank you

bill

If you are thinking about Simaudio DAC with transport: I have the Simaudio 260 DT transport, but it is followed by a Mutec MC 3+ USB reclocker *) for lowering of jitter and thus more analog sound. The reclocker then feeds an external DAC.

I think most CD transports can benefit from reclocking, and it does make a difference also in the cleanness and lack of smearing of piano notes. As an external DAC I can recommend the Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC. I personally have a Yggdrasil LIM DAC which comes relatively close at a much lower price (including digital cables between transport and reclocker, as well as between reclocker and DAC, the whole setup transport > reclocker > DAC is less than $10 K).

_______________________

*) I don't use the USB function, but the MC3+ USB is a newer design than the MC3+ and has even less jitter

 

[Tuckers]

There is this new review where Jeff Day claims the top of the line Audio Note CD player is the equal of his vinyl front end.

The Audio Note (UK) CD 5.1x Red Book CD Player - Unicorn Sighting!​

 

[billeames]

I must get a significant sound upgrade from the Esoteric K01x for any new item to be worthwhile. Even a stopgap measure needs to be a decent or noticeable upgrade. The K01x is from 2016. Perhaps if I waited until 2026, a significant upgrade at a low price could be had for less than $30,000. It needs to be almost as good as vinyl.

It's funny how the audio press ignores analog, versus cd comparisons.

A Great Turntable (50k sorry) is like being in heaven. For a short Period. 20 min. Then side 2. I'm sure there are great turntables cheaper and more expensive than I have. The one I have floats my boat.

 

[bonzo75]

Hello

I am trying to get an idea of what CD players can sound as good as or nearly as good as a $50,000 turntable setup.

if you are trying to understand what digital sounds better than a well set up analog rig even at low price or greater price than 50k, you have a long way to go in understanding the recordings that can be played on a turntable. Because those records cannot he played on a CD player.

Usually the guys who ask this kind of question take a CD and the exact same music on LP ignoring pressing etc and try to do a sonic compare

 

[chuck]

I am trying to get an idea of what CD players can sound as good as or nearly as good as a $50,000 turntable setup.

IMHO the Playback Designs MPT8 connected by PLink to the MPD8 will get the best sound from commercial RBCDs and SACDs and sound nearly as good or better than vinyl on a $50K turntable.

 

[Gregm]

Blanket statements -- or speculations -- about what digital playback hardware combo can match whichever analogue hardware combo (and vice versa), ignore the critical element of source material.
No matter how "good" your digital setup is, if the track / CD / SACD you're playing is FR restricted and flattened dynamically, it will sound pathetically worse than its (healthy) analogue counterpart played on a well setup Technics.
The converse applies as well, but it's rarer in my experience.

I.e., IMO expecting to draw reliable conclusions by comparing & contrasting the purported performance of digital & analogue reproduction hardware is tricky...

 

[wil]

Blanket statements -- or speculations -- about what digital playback hardware combo can match whichever analogue hardware combo (and vice versa), ignore the critical element of source material.
No matter how "good" your digital setup is, if the track / CD / SACD you're playing is FR restricted and flattened dynamically, it will sound pathetically worse than its (healthy) analogue counterpart played on a well setup Technics.
The converse applies as well, but it's rarer in my experience.

I.e., IMO expecting to draw reliable conclusions by comparing & contrasting the purported performance of digital & analogue reproduction hardware is tricky...

The whole digital/analog debate while “entertaining” at times is all about source material, ie the mastering of the source material. Fortunately, I don’t have any problem finding great digital recordings through the vast streaming catalog.

 

[Rexp]

I must get a significant sound upgrade from the Esoteric K01x for any new item to be worthwhile. Even a stopgap measure needs to be a decent or noticeable upgrade. The K01x is from 2016. Perhaps if I waited until 2026, a significant upgrade at a low price could be had for less than $30,000. It needs to be almost as good as vinyl.

It's funny how the audio press ignores analog, versus cd comparisons.

A Great Turntable (50k sorry) is like being in heaven. For a short Period. 20 min. Then side 2. I'm sure there are great turntables cheaper and more expensive than I have. The one I have floats my boat.

Are there any CD's you like the sound of or is the player just gathering dust? Some bloke on another forum told me the secret to good CD playback is to use a glass toslink connection between transport and DAC, sounds far fetched but you never know.

 

[billeames]

Hello. The cd player I like is the CH precision d1.5 and c1.2 combo. Cost is prohibitive. Almost 90k.

The best idea is for me to become 90k richer.

Reality seems to dictate for me to keep what I have and wait longer. This life is short and getting shorter.

Thanks for all the
suggestions.

 

[billeames]

Hello. The cd player I like is the CH precision d1.5 and c1.2 combo. Cost is prohibitive. Almost 90k.

The best idea is for me to become 90k richer.

Reality seems to dictate for me to keep what I have and wait longer. This life is short and getting shorter.

Thanks for all the
suggestions.