Can You Believe This-The Government Wants Us To Go EV but In So Doing They Will impose a gas surcharge

[DonH50]

I hear you Don and I understand. For me, my ROI is just under 4 years

SDGE is the most expensive in the nation and as I stated here several times we can pay as much as $0.45 per kWh which is simply outrageous
I truly respect everyone in their decision making process. For my wife and I and where we are in our lives,
this makes the best sense for us

The world is changing quicker than we know and the ICE Age is on the dawn of extinction (for me at least). Heck my sound system is powered totally by solar energy. I was given heat by several members here who suggested the sound would be terrible. This couldn't be farther from the truth

Wow, yes that is crazy expensive! But awesome ROI, makes me wonder what is going on out here. I just checked our last electric bill and the daily average was about 60 kWh/day at a cost of about $0.13/kWh (it fluctuates). The usage seems high to me, need to see what is eating all those Watts. Been hot so probably the air conditioner, and my wife likes to leave all the lights on half the night (she goes to be way late and I get up way early; one of our few differences is that we live in the same house but different time zones ). We are on well and septic so the well pump takes a lot of juice.

We hope to retire in a few years and a $50k~$60k (min plus some additional unspecified upcharges for installation issues and such) solar investment just isn't in our budget. With subsidies and including $0 electric bill the ROI was ~17 years; with fixed solar fees (see below) and estimated usage to cover when solar couldn't do it all, it ranged up to 27 years, depending on various assumptions, with an average around 22 years or so.

Speaking of imposing surcharges/subsidies and such, both the companies from whom I asked for bids said our area has a restriction of 10 kWh/day. I do not understand that at all; they both said it had to do with some sort of local gov't restrictions and our electric coop but I didn't follow the details. They could install enough panels to cover the house, but instead of breaking even or getting money back for selling excess energy to them, they would charge me ~$35 month for going solar plus whatever my normal usage is (e.g. at night or whenever solar wasn't enough). It made some sense after a little more explanation, mainly that it was to support their infrastructure for providing backup power and to maintain the lines and such, but was still unexpected. There was no "buying" by them of excess electricity my panels might generate. I did not try to figure out the numbers, but on one hand they are raising rates and claiming they cannot buy or generate enough "clean" power, and on the other hand are refusing to buy energy from willing customers. I don't get it.

Is there a market for tow trucks that provide charging for EVs? Seems like something like that must be coming; not everybody is going to be able to maintain a full charge all the time, and stuck in a blizzard without power would suck. I have seen advertising from one tow truck company in the area using a diesel generator on a truck to provide enough charge to get you home.

Re. foreign dependence on oil; one hidden catch is the dependence we have on rare earth materials for various electronic components (including batteries). China is one of if not the biggest supplier for many of those. I do not know how much a factor that is in EVs specifically, but it is certainly an issue for the electronic industry at large. And that includes the electronics in gas as well as electric vehicles. And in our stereos...

 

[KeithR]

it Is dimple math because you’re going to be $40-50 higher than the zero I’ll be paying. Take your blinkers off Keith. It’s you who are rationalizing. When you can beat free let’s talk.

Steve, you dropped 100k+ on solar + 100k on a Tesla to get that. It wasn't "free"

 

[Steve williams]

Steve, you dropped 100k+ on solar + 100k on a Tesla to get that. It wasn't "free"

Once again you’re misinformed

I don’t know where you got my solar was over $100K. Reality it was $41K and after tax credit it was $28K

if youre referring to free super charger IIRC it comes with the model S and Model X which are under $100K.

keith I’ve done the math. Of course I have up front investment. so do you. But get your facts straight when you make statements that are blatantly incorrect. To me that’s worse than hyperbole.

FWIW my son has a model 3 and he has free super charger

Regarding the math it’s simple as it comes down to how long before ROI.
Mine is 2 1/2 to 3 1/2, years. Then I’m fully invested so every time you’re at the gas pump watching that little dial making circles ever so faster along with all of your leaks, emissions and oil changes I guess I’ll have a smile on my face as you keep trying to find an explanation as to why yours is a better method. I respect your decision keith. I do for everyone here for that matter. This is the future , now. What I can do to help reduce worsening climate change is but a spit in the ocean. What worries me is what we are leaving future generations. I am concerned that guys who are smarter than me on this issue such as DaveC has said many times here “ that it’s too late. That’s a distressing prognostication. if true. So say what you will Keith and make all of your misinformed statements about my method. I’m ok with that. I’ve done the math. I know when my break even point is. I would suggest you aren’t so certain about yours. Plus I would like to think that what little I can do to help future generations is a small step in wanting to do more.

 

[Empirical Audio]

Wow, yes that is crazy expensive! But awesome ROI, makes me wonder what is going on out here. I just checked our last electric bill and the daily average was about 60 kWh/day at a cost of about $0.13/kWh (it fluctuates). The usage seems high to me, need to see what is eating all those Watts. Been hot so probably the air conditioner,

The first thing to consider is an inverter-type heatpump. Very efficient and usually smaller.

 

[Empirical Audio]

Re. foreign dependence on oil; one hidden catch is the dependence we have on rare earth materials for various electronic components (including batteries). China is one of if not the biggest supplier for many of those. I do not know how much a factor that is in EVs specifically, but it is certainly an issue for the electronic industry at large. And that includes the electronics in gas as well as electric vehicles. And in our stereos...

That is currently true, however with the right investment the US could be self-sufficient.

 

[DaveC]

Wow, yes that is crazy expensive! But awesome ROI, makes me wonder what is going on out here. I just checked our last electric bill and the daily average was about 60 kWh/day at a cost of about $0.13/kWh (it fluctuates). The usage seems high to me, need to see what is eating all those Watts. Been hot so probably the air conditioner, and my wife likes to leave all the lights on half the night (she goes to be way late and I get up way early; one of our few differences is that we live in the same house but different time zones ). We are on well and septic so the well pump takes a lot of juice.

We hope to retire in a few years and a $50k~$60k (min plus some additional unspecified upcharges for installation issues and such) solar investment just isn't in our budget. With subsidies and including $0 electric bill the ROI was ~17 years; with fixed solar fees (see below) and estimated usage to cover when solar couldn't do it all, it ranged up to 27 years, depending on various assumptions, with an average around 22 years or so.

Speaking of imposing surcharges/subsidies and such, both the companies from whom I asked for bids said our area has a restriction of 10 kWh/day. I do not understand that at all; they both said it had to do with some sort of local gov't restrictions and our electric coop but I didn't follow the details. They could install enough panels to cover the house, but instead of breaking even or getting money back for selling excess energy to them, they would charge me ~$35 month for going solar plus whatever my normal usage is (e.g. at night or whenever solar wasn't enough). It made some sense after a little more explanation, mainly that it was to support their infrastructure for providing backup power and to maintain the lines and such, but was still unexpected. There was no "buying" by them of excess electricity my panels might generate. I did not try to figure out the numbers, but on one hand they are raising rates and claiming they cannot buy or generate enough "clean" power, and on the other hand are refusing to buy energy from willing customers. I don't get it.

Is there a market for tow trucks that provide charging for EVs? Seems like something like that must be coming; not everybody is going to be able to maintain a full charge all the time, and stuck in a blizzard without power would suck. I have seen advertising from one tow truck company in the area using a diesel generator on a truck to provide enough charge to get you home.

Re. foreign dependence on oil; one hidden catch is the dependence we have on rare earth materials for various electronic components (including batteries). China is one of if not the biggest supplier for many of those. I do not know how much a factor that is in EVs specifically, but it is certainly an issue for the electronic industry at large. And that includes the electronics in gas as well as electric vehicles. And in our stereos...

60 kWh is a lot, I'd look into swamp coolers if it's your AC using most of that. Here in CO they work really well.

We could start mining rare earths again, we just don't want to because of the environmental impact it has.

 

[Steve williams]

I agree as they are so inexpensive to run

we are putting in a whole house fan because it too is inexpensive to run.

 

[mallen123]

Interesting thread. I'm in SoCal not far from Steve W, and SDGE is quite high (.55 KWH at peak rates).

I'm lucky in that I'm by the coast and rarely use AC, but even then, with pool pumps, wife who never turns off lights and class A tube amps, my bill was over $400 a month and climbing every year.

I finally bought Solar in 2016 at 3.2 cents /watt. $17k upfront after tax break gives me a 3 .5 yr payoff and basically zero'd out my bill. No battery as the extra $10k investment didn't make sense.

I think Hawaii is the only state with higher electric prices than California. Our vanishing middle income and growing lower income class are getting killed with power bills here as the 5% like us are the only ones who can afford solar. Luckily, natural gas is cheap and heating bills are pretty low for everyone.

Home Solar really only makes financial sense here primarily due to California's putting in place policies that have resulted in artificially high electric prices. And of course, the 30% tax credit, which expires end of this year.

Very few people in Texas use solar as their electric rates are 1/4 of California's.

If my rate was .13 kwh like DaveC, (and like many of my friends in Texas) it would make no sense at all to go solar.

My capacity now meets my usage so if I bought an electric car, I would have to buy many more panels and a battery to store the excess for night time charging or pay for night time electric rates.


If I didn't work out of my home and needed to travel in LA traffic, then I'd get an EV for the HOV lane privileges. I also get that I'd probably be able to use Teslas charging network if i commuted.


I decided to just keep my 20mpg 480 hp E55 AMG for another few years until used Model S's get a lot cheaper and costs of batteries have come down a lot more.

@Steve Williams -
I'm curious what you paid for a battery and if you looked at the payoff between that cost vs just paying SDGE night time rates when charging your EV?

Or are you planning to do most of your charging during the day at a Tesla station?

 

[Steve williams]

@Steve Williams -
I'm curious what you paid for a battery and if you looked at the payoff between that cost vs just paying SDGE night time rates when charging your EV?

Or are you planning to do most of your charging during the day at a Tesla station?

Hi mallen

I don't have a battery yet and yes you have it right on to charge at night from battery or get a separate meter for only charging during night time

I have been told that home storage batteries are soon to be much better and quicker to charge as well as overall size and that my solar vendor is coming out with a battery to be used as a whole home answer. When that comes out is when I leave the ICE Age

You're lucky re a SDGE bill of only $400 per month. I don't even get that low in the winter.and in summer my bills were $1000 per month. When I researched solar I told the vendor with whom I decided to go that I want not to supplement with solar but rather I want to be totally off their grid. Once the battery is released is when I go EV

 

[BlueFox]

In San Jose I have a small house (1200 sq feet), so my solar size is limited. This year I had to pay a couple hundred to PG&E to true up. Of course, if I didn’t have these freaking electricity eating amps I would be ahead of the game. However, a couple hundred of dollars a year for musical bliss is worth it.

 

[mallen123]

You're lucky re a SDGE bill of only $400 per month. I don't even get that low in the winter.and in summer my bills were $1000 per month. When I researched solar I told the vendor with whom I decided to go that I want not to supplement with solar but rather I want to be totally off their grid. Once the battery is released is when I go EV

Hi Steve
Yes - Dana Point ocean breezes help a lot. I also stop my pool pump at 1 or 2pm .

My Murrieta AirBnB is more like your Coto temperatures. My summer bills there were $1200 mth before Solar. And the SCE rates are lower than SDGE. So ironically, my payoff there is 6 yrs.



One more question - if you are currently generating enough to zero out your usage, won't you need to add a lot more panels to fill up a battery when you get one?


Mark

 

[Steve williams]

Hi Steve
Yes - Dana Point ocean breezes help a lot. I also stop my pool pump at 1 or 2pm .

My Murrieta AirBnB is more like your Coto temperatures. My summer bills there were $1200 mth before Solar. And the SCE rates are lower than SDGE. So ironically, my payoff there is 6 yrs.



One more question - if you are currently generating enough to zero out your usage, won't you need to add a lot more panels to fill up a battery when you get one?


Mark

I made 18000 KWH last year. I used just over 10000 KWH. I don’t think i will need extra panels. Mine are guaranteed at 120% efficiency
I have 30 panels now all 360’s. So I have a 10800 KW generator on my roof

 

[mallen123]

I made 18000 KWH last year. I used just over 10000 KWH. I don’t think i will need extra panels. Mine are guaranteed at 120% efficiency
I have 30 panels now all 360’s. So I have a 10800 KW generator on my roof

That makes sense if you continue to have that much excess capacity.

In 2016, panels were 265 w, and I have 27 which pretty much fill up my roof, so I would probably never buy a battery. But I'm happy with the 0 bill and relatively fast payoff.

 

[the sound of Tao]

With complete respect to all involved I’ve kind of avoided this thread because it’s such a death trap of a conversation these days.

Carbon accounting is such a complex beast and the underlying issues in a climate change discussion are so very heated.

After years of teaching sustainability in landscape design you might think I travel along a predictable pathway but the truth is after 15 years of presenting climate change science as part of a landscape design I’m remarkably middle path. That isn’t to say my position isn’t at this point within reason and understanding essentially informed at some basic level but rather that the answer for us all doesn’t lay in just bunkering down in the conflicting poles. Solutions aren’t always about just finding new forms of energy but a lot of it is more likely going to do with us just moderating our usage.

Life cycle assessment gives a different more real perspective and so only looking at operational energy can’t be the sum total of any energy or carbon calculation and that embodied energy and embodied water (the sum energy and water used in manufacture all the way up to the operational phase of anything) also need then to be calculated to make any true assessment. Quite often there is far, far more embodied energy than most would assume. Also issues like environmental factors like rare earth mining and refining may make even renewable energy not always then a sustainable energy.

We have to get much better at dealing with all of this and while technology is part of the fix it’s not the only tool we need in our toolbox. We also need wisdom and precaution.

Big picture a lot of what we assume to be viable, bearable and equitable may just not be. But regardless of who is right, or who is indeed responsible the future generations are going to need very different flexible scenarios to be able to go forwards and the answer may simply ultimately be about less car production, less individual ownership and much more about shared resources and less driving. Understandably very difficult to process for generations taught that buying cars and contributing to the economic model is a good thing socially.

Who knows how a workable solution will ultimately pan out but we have to stay flexible and open and learn how to collaborate to respond to the rising challenges of a still shaping but still not completely known future.

 

[Empirical Audio]

Hi mallen

I don't have a battery yet and yes you have it right on to charge at night from battery or get a separate meter for only charging during night time

I have been told that home storage batteries are soon to be much better and quicker to charge as well as overall size and that my solar vendor is coming out with a battery to be used as a whole home answer. When that comes out is when I leave the ICE Age

You're lucky re a SDGE bill of only $400 per month. I don't even get that low in the winter.and in summer my bills were $1000 per month. When I researched solar I told the vendor with whom I decided to go that I want not to supplement with solar but rather I want to be totally off their grid. Once the battery is released is when I go EV

I don't understand how these bills could be so high. My place is 4600 sq ft and my high bill is $300. I have all electric with two heat pumps and solar hot water, all LED bulbs. Maybe because it never hits 100F here? Is it just the electric rates?

 

[Steve williams]

I don't understand how these bills could be so high. My place is 4600 sq ft and my high bill is $300. I have all electric with two heat pumps and solar hot water, all LED bulbs. Maybe because it never hits 100F here? Is it just the electric rates?

Yes I find the same difficult to understand.My house is slightly larger than yours and there is only my wife and I here. We are as frugal as we can be yet prior to our solar addition our average bill during winter is $400-$600 and in summer it was anywhere from $700-$1000. I have said that SDGE is the most expensive in the nation.

Yet I am happy to report that by going solar my electric bill was zero last year and I had banked an excess of 8000 Kwh which SDGE sent me a check for

 

[mallen123]

I don't understand how these bills could be so high. My place is 4600 sq ft and my high bill is $300. I have all electric with two heat pumps and solar hot water, all LED bulbs. Maybe because it never hits 100F here? Is it just the electric rates?

Steve N - it's the California rates and SoCal Inland temps.

SDGE Tier one rate between 2 pm and 9 pm is .55KWH. Inland SoCal Temps during summertime routinely hit high 90s to 115.

My inland 4500 s f house cost $1200 to $1500 mth in summer and $250 to $400 in other mnths thru SCE before Solar. I have 4 pool /water feature pumps, a Koi pond pump that runs 24-7 and AriBnB guests in summer who keep at 76 no matter what the outside temp, hence the highsummer expense.

Now with an 8KW Sunpower system, it averages $500 a month in summer and zero's out from Nov to April. If it was on SDGE, it would be 15% higher. As SCE is cheaper than SDGE, my payoff is a bit longer. If i got an EV, my bill would be higher.

 

[Steve williams]

Wow. Where you are SDGE during on peak hours is sticking it to you at $0.55/KWH

Where I am on peak is a paltry $0.45/KWH

IIRC your panels are 270’s which were the highest when you purchased.
The 360 were the highest when I bought although they were just releasng the 370 at a much higher cost.
Bottom line Solar is not only getting better but is also becoming almost inexpensive with the 30% tax credit.

 

[mallen123]

Back to Steve Williams original "what the Government wants us to go do" topic-

IMO-

The real Government scam is there would be very little Solar in California without our extremely high power costs compared to other states. Our State Governments policies drive this (think Cap and Trade ) compared to other states. Tesla makes $100's of Millions selling carbon credits to our Utility companies who then are allowed by the state PUC board to raise Electric rates.

If you are in the top 5% and can afford solar then you are only out some $ for 4 to 6 yrs until you recoup your Solar investment. Although that 4-6 yr gets much worse in 2020 with the end of the 30% tax credit.

If you are poor then you can get a 30% CARE discount, but still be pay twice what other states pay.

If you are sub $50 to $100k income homeowner and don't have cash up front for solar, rent a house, or are planning to sell in the next 2 yrs, you are screwed. Not to mention that our highest state tax rate in the US (13%) hits at a modest middle income of $50k.

While California led the country to clean up our air years ago, todays environment has gone overboard. California accounts for less than 3% of the worlds carbon emissions so imposing these and even more costly future requirements is just virtue signaling.

I wouldn't be surprised if just this seasons wildfires have eclipsed our vehicular carbon output.

 

[Empirical Audio]

Back to Steve Williams original "what the Government wants us to go do" topic-

IMO-

The real Government scam is there would be very little Solar in California without our extremely high power costs compared to other states. Our State Governments policies drive this (think Cap and Trade ) compared to other states. Tesla makes $100's of Millions selling carbon credits to our Utility companies who then are allowed by the state PUC board to raise Electric rates.

If you are in the top 5% and can afford solar then you are only out some $ for 4 to 6 yrs until you recoup your Solar investment. Although that 4-6 yr gets much worse in 2020 with the end of the 30% tax credit.

If you are poor then you can get a 30% CARE discount, but still be pay twice what other states pay.

If you are sub $50 to $100k income homeowner and don't have cash up front for solar, rent a house, or are planning to sell in the next 2 yrs, you are screwed. Not to mention that our highest state tax rate in the US (13%) hits at a modest middle income of $50k.

While California led the country to clean up our air years ago, todays environment has gone overboard. California accounts for less than 3% of the worlds carbon emissions so imposing these and even more costly future requirements is just virtue signaling.

I wouldn't be surprised if just this seasons wildfires have eclipsed our vehicular carbon output.

I always enjoy going to CA because all the commercial diesels there have to meet the 2013 standards. I can actually breath. On the other hand, when I stay in places like San Diego, there are people on every street running polluting lawn equipment, usually 3-5 on every street. You cannot get away from the running IC motors. They are everywhere.