DarTZeel and Mcintosh - help in picking amp

[germinal]

In my opinion no difference as it should be
And if there supposedly is a big difference then there is something wrong with the cables and i would never buy them anyway.

But listen for yourself may be you have a completely different opinion who knows.

I have a Mola Mola Tambaqui (from the netherlands) at the moment... been listening to it.. of course it doesn't sound bad... but the funny thing is... the Auralic Aries G1 doesn't sound any different.. LOL in a blind test I picked the Aries 2 times as the better sounding and the Mola Mola only once..

together with the Lumin streamer we are talking 13k vs 3k..

I'm still not sure which amp I'll pick... I'm gonna wait till they treated my room with absorbers... the sales person says it will be easier to decide cause my room is too 'lively' (too high reverb) indeed it is..

I hear a difference between the DarTZeel and the Mcintosh.. not one sounds bad.. just a bit different but not between the DAC's

 

[andromedaaudio]

I hear a difference between the DarTZeel and the Mcintosh.. not one sounds bad.. just a bit different but not between the DAC's

Sounds like you have a good revealing system .
The only digital that makes a difference (and i find worth spending money on) is Old mark levinson digital , ime.
Or may be a Zanden tube DAC

I d spend the money on the best amp you can get and getting good digital recordings .
Beware of " too much " absorption which can make the sound energy less and dull .

 

[bryans]

The only digital that makes a difference (and i find worth spending money on) is Old mark levinson digital , ime.
Or may be a Zanden tube DAC

Clearly everyone has their own preference of what they like. This is what makes our hobby fun.

 

[Kingrex]

the test that matters is a week of listening to both; which one do you not want to not stop listening to? which gets old? makes you forget you are listening to reproduced music?

3 years ago i purchased a set of Lamm SET's, and borrowed a set of VAC Statement 450's, and for 3-4 months went back and forth between those two and my darTZeel's. any of the three sets of amazing amps could bowl me over on particular music and it would be hard at that moment to think of any other amp. especially the ML3 Lamm's. yet extended listening to all three for long periods eventually i could see that in my particular system and to my ears the Lamm and VAC were holding back my full enjoyment of lots of my musical connection compared to my darts. i would often be reminded i was listening to an amplifier. not with the darts.

a quick hit A/B does not really allow for that part, which i view as by far the most important part. i'm a guy who seriously listens over 30 hours a week.

I get this. I put my 845 back in and played them for about 3 weeks. At first, I was smitten with the tube again, but after a while it wasn't quite right and I put the Dartzeel back in. Its been in for 6 weeks or more and I don't think to much about it. I'm just surprised how good it all sounds.

 

[Kingrex]

Thanks for the advice..

Yes my budget it limited.. 40k on a system seems already a bit outrageous to me.. I know others buy speakers costing 50k.. but yeah..

Anyways.. today got a friend over.. we did some more listening.. he also preferred the “warmer” ( his words ) sound of the mcintosh.. but he had to admin the Dartzeel having a slightly wider soundstage/image and a bit more accurate.. ‘micro detail’ bit cleaner.. he liked em both..

but then when I said the Dartzeel was 4 times the price of the Macintosh he said.. well that’s an easy decision then

Taking everything in consideration.. to have the same power as the Dartzeel I need the mc1502 and to be able to use a turntable I need a pre.. which means difference in price is not so much anymore..

Anyways I want to thank everyone for their advice and input

There are very good A/B boxes. You don't need a preamp.

 

[Kingrex]

indeed.. the seperates from dartzeel are out of budget… I could have demo’s them in the store but I ve come to learn not to demo something I can’t afford.

with mcintosh you can have seperates ( C8 and MC1502 for less than 20k ) but I can’t shake the feeling that mcintosh is like the Volkswagen of the hifi world ? Ofcourse there’s nothing wrong with a VW

Lincoln or Cadillac. Not a VW

 

[Gregadd]

i can hear the Dartzeel calling you in your sleep.

 

[Zeotrope]

The service between DarTZeel and McIntosh is night and day. These experiences are recent, happened last year:
• Bought a brand new DarTZeel preamp and it had an issue. It was replaced with a new one right away.
• Bought a brand new Macintosh amp and it had an issue with one channel. Dealer sent it back to Binghampton for repair (Mcintosh would not replace it even though it was brand new). It came back a few weeks later with the exact same issue, except they moved the problematic channel to another channel! On top of it, the work order showing the work that was done was a complete lie - it said “Cleaned and replaced boards”. It was not cleaned, there were fingerprints all over the meters. And clearly the boards had not been replaced - or they replaced with another defective channel. On top of it all, many screws were loose and some were sticking out of the chassis, that’s how loose they were!
This Is the Mcintosh of today, folks. SAD!
My first and last time buying McIntosh.

 

[dinov]

Very unusual for McIntosh, I’ve never had a problem or payed to have my of my gear fixed. They’ve always talked care of me! Sorry to hear this.

 

[skinnyfla]

buy the McIntosh (as a darTZeel owner).

it seems you did your due diligence. and sure, there is a relationship between price and performance but it's tenuous at best.....in any case not universal and individual tastes and even choices of music enter into it. as well as amp/speaker synergy. even power grid can be a factor in judging.

we all have our opinions about possibilities of what went into your perceptions, but it seems you did things as right as you could.

... Mike - love your comments and how experience is shared... I`m in a similar situation, using a McIntsoh C52/Mc452 preamp/poweramp combination. I`ve owned these Macs for 8 years and very much enjoy the sound I`m getting from them to this day (also long term listening) - but as is always the case with this hobby, I do wonder what would give me a big step forward... DartZeel is obviously on the list of possibilities... so I`m kinda curious to hear what you mean when you say "relationship between price and performance but it's tenuous at best"... does it mean differences are very subtle when you reach a certain level and it then comes down to minimal personal preferences... but no huge steps will be achieved?

 

[Phantom-Audio]

I would pick the Dartzeel over Mcintosh.

 

[germinal]

2023 Golden Ear: darTZeel CTH-8550 MkII Integrated Amplifier - The Absolute Sound

2023 Golden Ear: darTZeel CTH-8550 MkII Integrated Amplifier - Yes, I have owned this. No, I have not reviewed it. Yes, it’s insanely good. Yes, I am an absolute fool for selling it. Wow, that felt good getting off my chest.

www.theabsolutesound.com

Some nice words about the 8550

 

[itay123]

I didn't fall for either,
but if I had to choose between the two,
DarTZeel is better.

 

[Zeotrope]

so I`m kinda curious to hear what you mean when you say "relationship between price and performance but it's tenuous at best"... does it mean differences are very subtle when you reach a certain level and it then comes down to minimal personal preferences... but no huge steps will be achieved?

You asked Mike, not me; but I’ll chime in anyway
I don’t find the differences subtle at all: as you spend more, the sound improves dramatically. Of course, not all components or upgrades will sound as good as others, and you have to make the right choices; but if you do, more expense = better sound.
Pschologically, some people tell themselves that the differences are minor and that there are diminishing returns. I don’t agree at all. When I compare the sound of playing back digital files through my MacBook Pro vs from the Taiko Extreme, it’s not 10% better, it’s 10X better. But that’s a subjective metric. If we have bought and it own it, we may over-estimate the benefit. If we cannot (or do not want to) afford it, we will under-estimate the benefit. There’s an entire forum for people who fall in the latter group, and it’s called Audio “Science” Review!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

... Mike - love your comments and how experience is shared... I`m in a similar situation, using a McIntsoh C52/Mc452 preamp/poweramp combination. I`ve owned these Macs for 8 years and very much enjoy the sound I`m getting from them to this day (also long term listening) - but as is always the case with this hobby, I do wonder what would give me a big step forward... DartZeel is obviously on the list of possibilities... so I`m kinda curious to hear what you mean when you say "relationship between price and performance but it's tenuous at best"... does it mean differences are very subtle when you reach a certain level and it then comes down to minimal personal preferences... but no huge steps will be achieved?

it means that over extended listening, hours a day, for months or years, darTZeel becomes the ending spot. but at the beginning you are paying a premium and all the darTZeel is doing is getting out of the way of the music. it's not wowing you with added beauty, or added emphasis here and there. it's not sounding like an amplifier or reproduction, it does not sound like tubes or solid state. but you find that with the most subtle things, or when you push it, it absolutely holds up. you come to realize how much you appreciate it's smooth extended highs, and agile and tonally rich bass.

it's never going to be the amp of the week, or get the glory. it won't wow you with the look.....yet it has the most outstanding built like a tank swiss quality.

when people come and listen to my system, they don't comment on my amps and speakers, they comment on the room and the music. you cannot tell what is doing what. that's the goal.....getting out of the way of whatever the music is doing........for me. so far I'm 18 years with darTZeel. and the musical experience is exciting and immersive with darTZeel. it's a delight. the music is never boring, yet it is truthful and honest to the source.

darTZeel is the answer to my question. but not everyone asks the same from an amplifier. but I can tell you I do ask a lot from the darTZeel to stand up to my system needs; I love huge music and the darts always deliver.....and the most subtle and a wonderful 1st watt too.

 

[skinnyfla]

it means that over extended listening, hours a day, for months or years, darTZeel becomes the ending spot. but at the beginning you are paying a premium and all the darTZeel is doing is getting out of the way of the music. it's not wowing you with added beauty, or added emphasis here and there. it's not sounding like an amplifier or reproduction, it does not sound like tubes or solid state. but you find that with the most subtle things, or when you push it, it absolutely holds up. you come to realize how much you appreciate it's smooth extended highs, and agile and tonally rich bass.

it's never going to be the amp of the week, or get the glory. it won't wow you with the look.....yet it has the most outstanding built like a tank swiss quality.

when people come and listen to my system, they don't comment on my amps and speakers, they comment on the room and the music. you cannot tell what is doing what. that's the goal.....getting out of the way of whatever the music is doing........for me. so far I'm 18 years with darTZeel. and the musical experience is exciting and immersive with darTZeel. it's a delight. the music is never boring, yet it is truthful and honest to the source.

darTZeel is the answer to my question. but not everyone asks the same from an amplifier. but I can tell you I do ask a lot from the darTZeel to stand up to my system needs; I love huge music and the darts always deliver.....and the most subtle and a wonderful 1st watt too.

Thanks for your reply, Mike - @Zeotrope, thanks also.

Mike - your system is certainly with the best out there and it`s great having you share your experience. I`m not even close - but things grow as we go along… speaking - I`m not at all unhappy with McIntosh C52/Mc452 driving the Wilson Sacha DAWs… still I`m thinking to upgrade the Amps - I have come down to 2-3 options, DartZeel, Dan Dàgostino and Aries Cerat. Won`t be able to afford Pre/Power though, so it will have to be an integrated in this league. Looking at the Dart 8550 mk2… will it be able to drive the Wilsons like the powerful separate Macs though? Will it be an improvement soundwise… sounds like it`s worth a try… great to hear some thoughts and other opinions/experience beforehand though, as the Darts can`t be found around the corner and the Macs aren`t exactly light weight either… so it will be quite an effort to compare…

 

[Audiohertz2]

Get a pr of MC3500’s if you want to compete with the Darts ..


Regards

 

[redandgold]

Skinnyfla,
I know your situation because I was in a similar one some years before. I owned a WA Alexia, which is at least comparable to your Sasha DAW. As amps I owned a pair of MC 1,2 kW and never thought about changing my amps. I was totally satisfied. I loved especially the midrange area and needed the power for additional home theatre application a tube amp cannot deliver.
After some years I asked myself if there is more performance in my system, but acoustics nothing to complain and change of speakers at this time only a small step. By coincidence I was able to hear the dart monoblocs at a dealer and I was shocked how better they were. I felt investment in amp is a better return. At least one class better. The big difference in this league is not better transparency or sound stage or something else (despite the dartzeel has better transparency and sound stage and everything else), it is more the sound is just right. You stop analysing music, you start just hearing music. Never ever thought about changing, it is the final purchase.

 

[christoph]

I know your situation because I was in a similar one some years before. I owned a WA Alexia, which is at least comparable to your Sasha DAW. As amps I owned a pair of MC 1,2 kW and never thought about changing my amps. I was totally satisfied.

Iever thought about changing (from DartZeel), it is the final purchase.

History repeating

 

[Lagonda]

History repeating

Yes, final amp purchase until next upgrade comes out ! Then suddenly that is at least 30% better than what was the final amp before ! History keeps repeating, and so does the marketing campaign !